Funny thing about a sailboat, it can be rigged with a motor and with a sail simultaneously. In this fashion the captain of the ship has two options. A) decide personally where he wants the boat to go and fire up that engine to go straight there as quickly as those horses can roam, or B) Put the sail up and trust the wind and the waves to direct and guide the ship in the direction it needs to head.
If I remember correctly , Nephi, Noah and Mahonri all trusted the sail or the waves. They hits speed bumps and rocky points along the way but eventually all found promised land.
However, today the boat is being navigated by a captain who has set goals in mind of where and how to guide the ship. He has decided the safest and fastest route to accomplishment before hand and thus preempted the hand of fate in the boats direction. In fact, the direction and goals have been defined by the same people who sold that confounded motor in the first place.
For awhile I have struggled with whether or not to point fingers. To be that guy, that guy who names names and looks like the sore-thumb tattle-tale holier-than-thou.
However, I have spent a good bit of time in meditation and prayer on this subject; “What can I do, what can we do, to bring about Zoin”. And the Lord has answered resoundingly, “preach repentance to those around you.”
Having come to the realization that indeed IT (zion) will not come without a remnant being preserved; Having come to the realization that we need an authority, one endowed with power to redeem Zion by power; Having come to realize that Zion is not possible as a community without a community and the Lords refuge, I know that I must have patience and live in accordance with the jewels of Isaiah who wait on the Lord. In thinking this and pondering this catch-22, wherein we are commanded to bring forth the kingdom of God and establish Zion while coping within a broken paradigm, I have been shown an answer to the original question, in words as plain as day. The time is now to preach repentance. And that goes for everyone, rich or poor as to spirit or position.
That is what we can do, and all we can do, point out errors and give direction for fixing them. The Lord gives one caveat to this action and even points out to whom we must go. Turning to Matthew 7 you’ll read;
3
aAnd why beholdest thou the
bmote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the
cbeam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou
ahypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
This is great teaching, incredibly thought provoking. The wisdom of a few words found in depth here. Most often focused on in these verses is the plight of the hypocrite. Namely, that he tells someone to do better when he himself is on a lower plane of life too. However, the other view of this teaching is just as insightful. That is the final line; “and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” The point then comes into focus. Repent brothers and sisters, shake yourselves clean. Then however, your work is not done. Why did you repent? You now know, you have seen and see clearly. Do the same for your brother, call repentance and love to those who cannot see clearly. To take this a bit further, Joseph felt the need to correct these versus and add to them. His version reads thus;
4 And again, ye shall say unto them, Why is it that thou beholdest the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
5 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and canst not behold a beam in thine own eye
6 And Jesus said unto his disciples, Beholdest thou the Scribes, and the Pharisees, and the Priests, and the Levites? They teach in their synagogues, but do not observe the law, nor the commandments; and all have gone out of the way, and are under sin.
7 Go thou and say unto them, Why teach ye men the law and the commandments, when ye yourselves are the children of corruption?
8 Say unto them, Ye hypocrites, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
verse six, seven and eight here are peculiar to Josephs Translation. HE drew particular attention to a group of people who the masses were relying on for instruction. This is the sermon on the mount, all classes of men were invited and attending. HE thought openly that they needed to know to whom he is speaking, and to whom they to should be speaking! and about whom was he speaking about? Namely, the teachers of the Law, the leadership of the ‘church’.
“Beholdest thou the Scribes, and the Pharisees, and the Priests, and the Levites? They teach in their synagogues, but do not observe the law, nor the commandments; and all have gone out of the way, and are under sin.”
This is no mincing of words. Here they are, pretending to know and to do the law, the covenants, of God. But they do not! They are leading a people astray! Because of it, Zion is not their aim, it is self interest. And ALL are gone out of the way. and what are the people to do about it? Should they shrink and allow their priesthood leaders to walk over them? Should they continue to allow the cause of the Lord to be profaned, misunderstood, etc? The Lord told them, the common people, to “Go thou and say unto them, Why teach ye men the law and the commandments, when ye yourselves are the children of corruption? Say unto them, Ye hypocrites, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
This flies in the face of all the pacifists who believe that now is not the time, those who believe that a people being misdirected should just submit to misdirection and be led as the blind by the blind. That to do so is to submit to the will of God.
AS Christ tells us here, in Josephs words, if the cause of Zion is fallen, forgotten and profaned, it is up to those who have heard the sermon on the mount to go to THEM, the rulers of our synagogues, and demand that the truth be told. IT also gives us insight that we should first put ourselves, as individuals, in a place personally that we are one with the cause of Zion and of God. We must first, personally, remove the beam from our own eyes. If we then do so, repent and turn to Christ and his cause, we will see clearly to go to those who steer this ship, openly in writing or verse or by mouth, and demand that the sails be put to good use in steering the ship! And of course, perhaps even easier, incite change for the better with your neighbor right there in your hometown. Amulek and Samuel both taught the same gospel, one had to travel across land and racial divides, the other merely had to speak up to those all around him. Having been warned…
Sticking with the subject of eyes the Lord also declared in the KJV;
45 And if thy foot
aoffend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Joseph read this verse, he added a little bit of light and a key for us to understand our place;
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
I wonder why the leaders who filtered the bible removed that (sarcasm intended)? It’s amazing that Joseph had the fortitude to add it and give it to his own fledgling and tattered bunch of saints!
So now is the time for us, the children of Zion, to stand or fall by ourselves. We are not here to trust in the arm of another man as Zion is covered in the mud. Come unto the father yourselves, become prophets with your own witness of truth. And when the man who is set in front of you, who is called a seer, transgresses that same trust it is your job, son or daughter of Zion, to remove that influence and replace it with light. IT is our job to seek and establish Zion. IT is our duty, indiviudally, to become citizens of the pure in heart. And once there, with that beam removed, ” it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall
ajudge all things pertaining to Zion. And
aliars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are
bnot capostles and prophets shall be
dknown.”
Repent, turn around, seek your lord and God. And when you find him, find redemption, open your eyes and your mouths. Otherwise we will attempt to enter Zion with one good eye and one bad. But, “It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire”.
REly on YOUR eye and seek to remove the dirtiness of Babylon staining the eye set to see for you.
“and it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were
adriven forth before the wind.”
Let go of the sail, cut the motor, and rely on providence for your course and direction. Demand the same from all those who too would sail toward that land which Isaiah foretold.
I don’t mean to offend but I am wondering what this site is? It seems like a lot of partisan rants against the mormans. I was looking for some kind of introduction to the goals or focus of this website but I see nothing. can only one person write entries?
ITs a Blog which started entirely personal but now several people have written here. They are not rants, entirely, rather calls to repentance. The vast majority of the posts are doctrinal discussions on scripture, many of which cover topics that the modern church doesn’t agree with, though they are scriptural. Viewing the present day Mormon paradigm can be very frustrating in light of the intent of Zion. Amongst those who are frustrated in this manner, there is some discussion as to who or what we are supposed to be doing as individuals to affect change. Many feel that it is their job to relax and sit on the sidelines, so be it. However, I don’t believe that is my job.
So, this post isn’t a rant, rather a discussion on what we, the citizens hearing the sermons on te mount, are to do with foul instruction to rely on the arm of flesh.
If you don’t feel the same way on things, you too are invited here. Please comment, share some scripture and your viewpoint. IF things remain civil we can uplift and edify each other. Thanks for your interest.
Calling people to repentence is a tough thing, especially when they dont want to hear it and when they truly believe that what they are doing is right. we are taught, in a way, from a young age to sit back and ride the gravy train of following the prophet and church. we are not really ever taught to take an active roll in our life and our own spirituality. although otherwise stated throughout the scripture. as i think of it more calling those closest to you in your ward your neighborhood and families to repentence is taking another step towards the persecution that we need to strive for.
amen to this post. i’ve had similar thoughts recently.
In doing so, make sure you have first removed the beam from your eye, and always do so out of love and in the spirit. No harm can come from such a situation.
Mat, in rebuttal, I don’t personally believe that we actually strive for persecution. Rather, we see it as a natural byproduct of a christlike lifestyle. Examine the fruit of your life, if persecution isn’t part of it, if the fruit isn’t there, than babylon hasn’t sorted you out to this point!
Thanks Weeping. Great post.
Tunecedemails
you wrote that the Lord has answered resoundingly, “preach repentance to those around you.” I am curious. did you receive this answer recently? the holy ghost has yet to say that to me. Actually, she said the opposite to me. i was told to keep my mouth shut. i suppose at some point i will be given permission (or directions) to loose my tongue, but as yet, no such orders. if you have recently been told to “preach repentance to those around you,” it may mean that others will also be told the same thing. or it could just be specific to you alone. so, i’m curious as to when you received this message.
Dan,
I had an experience with this a while back. I was teaching gospel doctrine…i don’t remember the subject, but i felt the strong impression to call everyone in the class to repentance. a few weeks later it was brought up about “who has the ‘right’ to call others to repentance,” (because of my call to them, I am sure) as if we had to a)hold a higher calling or b)be the bishop or stake president. What i wanted to tell everyone is that throughout the scriptures anyone who is doing the right things and called of god (as a prophet or moved by the spirit) can call others to repentance, but I ended up just talking about stewardship…blah, blah, blah…a YW pres. has ‘right’ to call her yw to repent etc…
and while i recognize that as a woman i really don’t have the ‘right’ to call men to repent, i do have the ‘right’ when moved upon by the holy ghost. do i think that this will happen often? no. it is the priesthood’s responsibility. however, everything is just a mess right now and authority and position are so confused that perhaps god let me use my opportunity to influence others for good, or at least give them a chance to hear that there are other ways.
As I read the original post, I couldn’t help think of Samuel the lamanite standing on the wall of the city. He had preached among the nephites for many days and was about to give up when the lord came to him and to him to “prophesy unto the people whatsoever things should come into his heart.” What was his main message? Repent…
We are not all called to the same ‘mission.’ Lehi was told to take his family and flee, jeremiah was told to stand firm and eventually was stoned to death. I would suspect we could all have different jobs should we choose to petition the lord for the privilege.
I believe that the lord is putting his message out through a number of people. Sometimes, that message is only meant for a few people or perhaps one individual who is seeking to understand what lies ahead of nation, the church, and us as individuals. to me, Weeping for zion has reminded us that we must give up our favorite sins if we are to be able to bring again zion.
how bout we stop laboring under the idolatry of trying to rid of our sins and instead turn ourselves over to god and let him decide what needs to be gotten rid of. we don’t need any more attempts to get rid of sin, we need healing and we need it baaad. repentance is simply moving towards light truth and love to any degree. our perception of sin is completely based in the traditions of our fathers. I am not giving up anything, cause god is not asking that we give anything up, because that is wholly based on our own effort. zion is not a place where people who have given up their favorite sins come together. that is hell and self worship. I will be celebrating in a different zion than that.
From 2 Nephi 28:8 -
“he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.”
Rooch, does that scripture ring a bell? or how about this one 3 Nephi 27:19?
“And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.”
can we not assume the same criteria for entry into his kingdom would also apply to Zion?
Some time ago, I spent a lot of time trying to understand what ‘Zion – the pure in heart’ meant. I came to understand that ‘pure in heart’ means we have put behind us the sins of pride and selfishness. We cannot reside in Zion if we have our own agenda. In some aspect, i am in violent agreement with you regarding the ‘sins’ defined by man, but we must all be cleansed before we can be found in the kingdom of god.
repentance is our acknowledgment that we have missed the mark and need to rely on the blood of Christ to make it. the people of king Benjamin were not able to have their sins remitted (cleansed) until they ‘viewed themselves in their carnal state, even less then the dust of the earth.’ That, in my opinion, is the process of repentance. and yes, we All need to repent.
yes all those scriptures ring a bell plus hundreds of others with which I mercilessly beat myself up with the majority of my life. we can toss scrips back and forth all we want or we could cut through the mists of darkness and get to the heart of the matter. you are a broken man, I am a broken man, all the people on this blog are broken, the whole world is. we are tired and naked and hungry and we don’t even know it. we have wounds and scars and pains and bruises the depths of which we probably won’t realize until they are visited by the redemptive power of god. the issue of the world isn’t that we are sinning too much – that is just the outcome of our unhealed brokeness. there will be no end to sin until god has taken every broken and damaged heart and redeemed it in love. we hurt others because we are hurting. gods redemptive love is the only thing that will heal our wounds. put aside these scriptures and discussions and philosophies and debates about church history and polygamy and what do you have – a bunch of broken children desperate for the love and validation of a loving father. we are so hungry for that loving power, and that is why we are all gathered at this blog – we know something is missing – and we know that showing up in church buildings and worshipping leaders does not fill that emptiness. trying to rid ourselves of our own conception of sin is just a symptom of the brokeness – it will heal nothing, it will not fill the void. we will continue hurting, manipulating, and controlling all those around us until we begin to glimpse and experience for ourselves the redeeming light of unconditional love. there is no other way to resolve sin or heal brokeness. once again I don’t care about the scriptures you quotè – scriptures are one of the greatest idols of this people. we have had it beat into us that these scriptures will take us to the tree of life (which interestingly enough is the representation of this love of which I speak) but the scriptures can no more lead you to gods love than a stone. it is light love and redemption that guide us through the darkness. to the degree that scriptures or anything else fill you with any degree of hope faith or love then they are leading you to god. god will speak to us however he wishes. I for one desire to reject any form of ungodliness especially when it is cleverly packed as gods holy word. if it is not healing the brokeness, it is not from god.
Rooch, in the spirit of discussion, you have me perhaps slightly confused. Lets see if we can see this eye to eye to bring again zion. eh?
I think I see where you are going with that thought-line. It fits with the idea of “if you meet buddha, kill him” as any idol that drags you along outside of Christ himself (who actually brings you to the father of the universe, and not merely himself, that light and love) sets us up to rely on the arm of flesh, be it scripture, man or our love of vitamins.
though I am not really understanding the beef you are having. So, I’m going to quote a few things i’m not grasping;
“we don’t need any more attempts to get rid of sin, we need healing and we need it baaad. repentance is simply moving towards light truth and love to any degree”
However, repentance is NOT moving towards light and truth and love. Repentance, or “teshuvah” means to ‘turn around’. SO in that since, its not a progression of any sorts, you’re in the same spot just facing another direction.
The process of moving that direction, with Christ and the holy ghost moving us, is the process of becoming one with the will of god, removing the idolatry we are full at the behest and direction of he who knows best. This is up to the Lord as we are at his mercy and understanding. However, we have to turn around to see it and head that direction. WE must repent. ITs the only part of the redemption process we do at all on our own.
The greek version is ‘metanoeo’, which means to become aware, to wholly change ones mind. In this sense, that is precisely what this people need. AS Isaiah prophesied this people are all out of the way, the are estranged. Waking them up to the realities of Babylon and the necessity of zion, that of pure love and taking care of each other, is desperately needed. We must tell people to turn around, to see their reliance on the arm of flesh, to see the degenerate nature of our culture and let go, rely on God for your direction, salvation and healing. AS we walk in that direction we yell directions to those around and behind us to do the same. Zion is full of those who have let go of the arm of flesh, have turned around. Saviors on mount zion.
where the scriptures are useful are in description. That gives us a truer idea of the society we are looking for, thus the ability to turn around from it and say, “ok God, I was wrong, take me there’.
The Lord said it best to Joseph considering Sin, understanding the description of zion in scripture and of those who weep and work for this eventuality;
4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.
*Thus the importance of written instruction given us from Joseph, the enable us to see and understand our goal.*
7 For thus saith the Lord God: Him have I inspired to move the cause of Zion in mighty power for good, and his diligence I know, and his prayers I have heard.
8 Yea, his weeping for Zion I have seen, and I will cause that he shall mourn for her no longer; for his days of rejoicing are come unto the remission of his sins, and the manifestations of my blessings upon his works.
9 For, behold, I will bless all those who labor in my vineyard with a mighty blessing, and they shall believe on his words, which are given him through me by the Comforter, which manifesteth that Jesus was crucified by sinful men for the sins of the world, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart.
Thus the need for us to labor in the vineyard, spreading the knowledge of Zion! Its the only thing we can do to help build that community, as we are under covenant to do. to brings redemption through Christ. We must open our eyes as to the reality of Zion, turn around and head there and help all those around us to do the same. Christ then will remove sin, will redeem, will provide the power with which Zion will be redeemed (section 103).
WE can’t wholly preach the rejection of scripture, as when angels come and administer they quote it. When the Lord himself comes to open your eyes, he quotes them, as he did with the nephites and on his return to his disciples.
WE can however wholly reject our reliance on them for understanding. AS we need to see scripture in the light the Lord has in my mind, in light of his understanding, in light of his society. This requires that the source of our understanding is light, truth, love, revelation, though those things can work in and through scripture.
WE cant wholly preach the ridiculousness of worrying on being burdened with sin, as to do so puts us in the class of korihor and nehor who taught that there is no sin.
We can however preach reliance of God, personally, for our understanding and removal from sin. IT is he the forgives sins, always plural and understand what really needs to be removed.
We have no need to argue, but let’s discuss. Else our own arrogance displays the precarious nature of our paradigm.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
that was way longer then I intended, I apologize! heck, thats a post in itself!
Spek,
I actually am in more agreement with Rooch. “Violent disagreement” might be a bit strong for what you really feel, but I’d re-read what rooch originally wrote and you’ll probably find more wisdom in there than you’ll probably think.
What he’s saying is that there is nothing we can do to really repent, nothing we can do to make ourselves better. It’s the classic story of several parables in the bible. On the one hand we have the young rich ruler asking “what shall I do to inherit eternal life,” as if he could really do anything of himself, and on the other hand you have the example of the publican crying, “God be merciful to me a sinner.” (both from Luke 18.) It’s all about the focus – either I focus on what I can do as an individual to purify myself, or we let go of that idol and avail ourselves to the redemptive power that rooch is explaining. I really have no grasp of these things other than at an intellectual level, and even that is only 1mm deep.
Wayne jacobsen wrote a fantastic book on the subject which talks specifically of this type of stuff and in a very down to earth way and I’d highly recommend it for anyone in “violent disagreement” or otherwise. The use of the scriptures you throw out are really off target anyway. rooch isn’t saying that there is no sin, nor that we can do whatever we want no matter the consequence, but rather that repentance isn’t a process that includes the 5 ‘R’s or however many ‘r’ words we throw around these days. repentance isn’t a process where we submit to higher earthly authorities. Repentance is a matter of focus and which path we’re choosing to walk along. Whether we agree that repentance means (as the Greek suggests) “to change one’s mind” about the need for a Savior or what the savior can really do for us, or (as the hebrew suggests) to merely “turn around” and change paths, what rooch is saying is merely that we need to stop worshipping the idols that suggest that we get rid of our sins all by ourselves by saying what “I can do” like the young rich ruler.
jacobsen’s take on the young rich ruler story was not only humorous (to me), but incredibly insightful, and provides a nice parallel to what rooch said.
And, dan, thanks for the post. I know I needed it.
we have every need to argue if it is an honest expression of how we feel. lets get it out of our system. I for one have spent my life calculating every word to appease the masses. no more of that. if I offend, its cause I probably meant offense. lets be like children and not hide our emotions.
that being said I have no beef with the post it was actually very inspiring and filled with the spirit. I felt very moved to continue crying repentance. I also love your description of repentance as it captures better the way turning to god has felt to me. one description that really changed my life is that life is a river. the world is trying to move upstream and expending tons of effort to do so yet getting nowhere. yet everything we want is downstream. we don’t need to try and get downstream, we simply need to stop paddling upstream and the current will naturally turn us around towards god. the beef I have is pretty much with speks comment about favorite sins. its just a very upstream feeliing comment to me however it was intended. no I don’t think we should reject scripture or anything that brings us love. really we should redefine scriipture as anything that points us the right way. the fact that you even defend the concept of scripture at all is an indicator of how much its worshiipped.
I hope if I have offended someone that we can argue it out. I have loved this discussion.
spek I posted before I read your comment. you hhave given a bit of clarity on what I am trying to say. that captures the spirit of what I feel very much. wayne jacosen does have some awesome material. like I said this is a good discussion.
sorry I meant tom I posted before ii read ur comment.
Amaxzing the amount and levels of Idolatry that we are immersed and versed in, but oblivious to it.
had to laugh at your analogy of the river! Only because, the way you phrase it here, it make perfect sense and is a very good analogy.
However, I have a favorite analogy of a river which is Buddhist at heart. in it we are fish. the world and all the things around us are the current going downstream, and most folks are actually not swimming at all but rather floating with the current, downstream. they survive by chasing and eating each other. However, if I turn and face upstream, against the current of accepted ideals and toward God, I find strength in the effort and food is effortlessly given to me in the form of bugs floating down current.
Two river analogies both perfectly relevant, but both have us facing opposite directions. Funny.
lol, well I guess we got the river working for us up and downstream. we are so buddhist.
Tom,
Please reread my comment. I stated that I was likely in “violent agreement” with Rooch, not violent disagreement.
My life experience tells me that we can reach a point where we have no disposition to do evil. I believe that we achieve this plane when we receive the baptism of fire as did the people of King benjamin.
As far as favorite sins is concerned, My point was that it is really really hard to be good all the time. there are people, like myself, that hold themselves back because they are not willing/able to shed a particular vice.
Spek
rooch,
what is scripture to me? I have determined that reading the book of mormon and not accepting any man made interpretation helps me to ask the right questions. i now question everything i hear from the pulpit, I even question everything i wrote and believed up through this morning. i do like your analogy of the river because it seems to be human nature to make spiritual things much more complicated than is needed. That is why I believe that the gospel is as recorded in 3 Nephi 27. It is simple and straight forward.
FWIW,
spek
talk about being led by the spirit. i felt to check the latest post and it answered some very important questions very beautifully for me. and it was extra exciting because each of the individuals who contributed in the comments (with the exception of Merry and matthew who i am not familiar with) but everyone else who engaged in the productive conversation which followed and added to my light and understanding are people who i have encountered elsewhere online. its funny to see (online) such a gathering of people who i have come to love and include in my prayers. I am so grateful for the way The father has touched my life through each of you. what a gold mine of uplift.
Spek, my apologies. Though, to be fair, I’m not sure i’ve ever heart anyone being in violent agreement with anything. blame it on my midwestern public schooling.
dan, indulge me a little, but a bit of what you stated doesn’t necessarily match what I read in the scriptures. when i read christ’s account to the nephites and the disciples, i don’t see him quoting any scriptures at all. maybe the qualifier you added, “when he comes to open your eyes,” makes the difference, but when I read 3 Ne 17 and others I see a Christ who is intimately personal, who isn’t bound to quoting scriptures (though certainly he does in other areas of scripture). i see a christ who knows each person individually and responds on an individual basis.
when he tells people to “return to your homes,” he wasn’t quoting scripture so much as he was providing the people with prep time. when he lamented that the people were unable to grasp the clues and the breadcrumbs he left for them, he wasn’t quoting scripture (at least as defined by the standard works or whatever it may be), he was instructing on an individual and collective plain that wasn’t necessarily bound by the writings of others.
i suppose i’d grant that everything Christ speaks is scripture, therefore he is always quoting scripture no matter if he’s lamenting our inability to grasp the breadcrumbs he left for us, or whether he’s praying unspeakable words to his father, but I don’t think that’s what your original comment was referring to.
the actual words, words actually spoken by Christ, are fairly limited in all of scripture, but I don’t see him quoting the very same scriptures no matter the venue. i’d actually suggest that’s another “stake” we set up as part of our constitutional dispositions to limit what the lord could and would say were he to appear to us. if we suppose that he’d only quote scripture to us, then perhaps we’d miss him when he appears and write it off as, “well, that person didn’t quote scripture to me so that necessarily can’t be Christ,” or something along those lines.
thoughts?
he doesnt quote it word for word and those of us who speak by the spirit rarely do. but i think what dan is referring to is the words of isaiah which jesus expounded to them. see i dont feel like it is necessary to “quote” memorized scripture but neither is there anything wrong with it since truth is not copyrighted and not about who said it first or who said it best or even who said it period. jesus also glances at the record if for nothing more than to have them bring them out and add what he points out that they forgot to include. he says he inspired his servant samuel to mention the resurection and asks if it didnt happen just as samuel prophesied it would. so yeah scriptures are important but when we say that we should be referring to the truth contained in them and not to the books themselves nor should we idolize the recorders of scripture or words/ language of them…rather the concepts should be written on our hearts.
for the record, i ain’t no buddhist.
Tom, sure I’ll indulge you
3 Nephi 22-25 are either a direct quote or rehash of ISaiah and malachi.
In fact in chapter 23 we have the only place in scripture where the Lord specifically commands us to read and study a book of scripture; “And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Sure he was personal the whole time, but even he felt it his duty to quote the great prophet Isaiah whose job it was to give us the vision of all.
just woke up to some kids trying to tp the church I sleep outside of. I think I scared the hell out of em. thought id check up on the post.
tom, amen.
anarchist, in a very buddhist train of thought, its impossible to “be” a given label at all, which is just egoic attachment to a bundle of thoughts, so not only are you not buddhist, you are not lds and you are defiinitely not an anarchist. you just “are”. (for the record, of course.)
spek, you are laboring under a very heavy burden which I know all to well, it is the chains of hell to live in such a way. it is not hard to follow god. it is not a matter of effort. that is the call to repentance we need. we have blocked the path to god with a sickening darkness. if you are fearfully expending tremendous effort to rid yourself of sin, you are not free to find god, love yourself or your neighbor. I feel so strongly that is the call to repentance we all need. you don’t have to live under that selfish burden of saving ourselves. I feel the intense sincerity with which you seek god. in some ways you have had more tangible connection to heaven than myself. but god has made one thing very clear to me over the years, and I feel very bold in sharing it – everything which does not bring healing, love, space, redemption, faith, or hope is not from god and is not good. you can package it as simply trying to rid yourself of sin, but it is a hellish and selfish and tiring path to walk. it is the very thing god is trying to save us from. imagine the freedom of not having to avoid sin and resist it all the time. living that way is the sin. it is a state of fear, and there is no love in it. you can instead just graze in the pasture of gods love money and without price.
if you are leaving it up to yourself and to be good all the time and to shed your vices, you have made yourself an idol. you have found something to focus on other than god – yourself. you have stepped off the boat like peter, and in your fear of the storm taken your eyes away from that which can heal you and make you walk on water.
if we are going to talk scripture, why don’t we talk about calling good evil and evil good. it is not good to try and rid yourself of sin. it is good to wait in faith for the hope of righteousness. it is not good to try and save yourself. it is good instead to find love and healing.
if you want scripture your idol testifies against u – we love god because he first loved us. perfect love casts out fear. god is love. god has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and a sound mind. the fruits of the spirit are love and longsuffering and faith and hope and anything good. hast thou faith? have it to thyself before god, happy is he that condemneth not himself in the thing that he allows. my peace I give unto, not as the world gives I give you. my yoke is easy and my burden is light. the way is as easy as casting your eyes on the son of god, but because of the easiness of the way there were many that would not look and perished. we love god because he first loved us. there is none good but god. the law and the prophets is fulfilled in this – love your neighbor as yourself. except a man does it with real intent it profits him nothing and is counted evil to him. the list goes on and on, and they all testify of simply turning our face to god, and that god is a loving father who’s sole purpose is our joy.
can we take our eyes off of our so called sins long enough to find gods love and power? is there anything that can change us but unconditionalbe love and redemptive power. I testify that you all fear your god, and in so doing you are lost and in sin. you cannot love god in your fear of him, and its your fear of him that keeps you attempting to please him,when all he wants is to love u and bind up your broken heart.
erin, i agree there are times where he does quote scripture, but telling us to study someone’s words is different that saying that he will ONLY quote scripture when he appears to us. from the record we have of joseph smith, and others, their visits were mixed both with scripture (defined as being in the standard works, I suppose) and personal instruction. You quoted 3 ne 23 to prove your point, but there are other chapters which are plainly not “scripture” as we’re apt to define them (3 ne 17 comes to mind, the story of the bro. of jared comes to mind, enoch comes to mind and many others, like nephi or enos).
I’m not saying he or his angelic servants won’t quote scripture, as history plainly evidences that they do, but I am disagreeing with the notion that that’s all they do when they appear to us. we can get so wrapped up in this idea that the scriptures are all we’re supposed to read, or that christ won’t talk to us but in quoting someone else, and by doing so set stakes up which limit what christ can and will do or say to us.
Just my thoughts.
Tom, I never said that that is all that they do. I never implied that when the lord and angels come to us they only quote prior scripture. I only stated that they use them. Men on a much higher plain of existence and knowledge use scripture as a learning and teaching tool. higher paradigms have not rejected scriptural use. Nobody ever said they were all that we are supposed to read, etc… Only that there is utility and teaching power in them. To reject all scripture as idolatry merely limits our resources of learning. Erin is my code name, my wifes handle.
My response to all of this is it just doesn’t matter. none of it, not a one bit. so we have drawn some line in the sand that says christ quotes scripture or commands us to read it or angels quote it or whatever. so now what? who cares? once we have drawn the line and the debate is ended we are the same people. we argue about the dumbest stuff and in the end, it doesn’t matter. we want to take comfort in some sort of well defined fence so we can be contented pharisees. enough about scripture!! we have missed the weightier matters so none of this is relevant!
so we pick some arbitrary concept like scripture, draw a fence around it with a bunch of loose
cultural definitions and greek translations and worship the hell out of it. its so arbitrary its comical. why is no one talking about how if you don’t do it with real intent it profits you nothing? the intent with which we do anything is the only thing that matters anyway. so no matter how you define anything, the only thing that matters is where your heart is. that is why all of these concepts about sin, scriptures, polygamy, word of wisdom, etc are all so useless to us. they are just outlets for our control. we feel like we have defined something well enough to do something about it. but if our hearts are congruent with god everything that needs to happen will happen naturally. there is no need to define anything if your heart is right.
we are seriously like pharisees trying to take comfort in some sort of fenced standard. its like we want scripture to be above the intent with which we do things. we want something so solid and immovable that it can never be breached. we want to place our trust in it. the funny thing is that scripture is just a concept! its not even real or tangible. can you call it scripture if it does not lead you to do good – no! why the need to even call something “scripture”?! we are just looking for something to put our trust in that is as illusive as the mist of darkness that it is.
its the same issue with the concept of church. church is not real, it is a cultural perception and impossible to define, which is why it is an idol and impossible to find joy in. the only release we find is when christ defines his church as those who repent and turn unto him – duh! if its not causing people to find god, is it from god? no! if its not causing people to turn to god, i don’t call if you call it covenants or scripture or repentance of jesus or church or any other label. look behind the label to the intent and you unlock a mystery of god – that intent is the only thing that matters.
is it true that intent takes the form of something we arbitrarily define as scripture? yes! is it true that those in love with god will naturally organize themselves into something that may vaguely resemble church? yes! but the point is that it doesn’t matter what form it takes, we need to trust in god and not our strange and wholly fear based and control based definitions of scripture.
why can’t we move on from all this idolatry? why are we so stuck on things that don’t matter? because we are afraid. drawing the lines makes us feel more in control. we are afraid of sinning or not pleasing god or whatever it is and so we make a fence around the law to protect ourselves. and then we are so busy worshipping it that we can’t see the good when it appears outside the fence.
just like jesus told the jews that god could raise up seed to abraham from stone, so it is that god can work however the hell suits him best, he is not limited to our small minded defintions. god could raise up scripture out of the most vile and vulgar thing you have ever heard or read, because god is scripture, he is the word, and whichever way he works is good, no matter the label you apply.
put aside these crazy notions of scripture! how does it help you one bit? it makes you feel a little bit more in control, it gives you a way to try and conform your behavior, when we aren’t supposed to trying to conform our behavior but letting god change our hearts so our behavior changes with it.
do you see the difference there? when we are trying to define things we are trying to draw a line with which we will step over with our own effort. if we come up with a defnition of scripture and then say that scripture is necessary to be read, we can then invest our effort into reading it and feel a little more in control. but at the end of the day we are still empty, because we missed the mark entirely, and that gnawing emptiness makes us afraid and we turn to some other idol to fill it up.
god does not care about your definitions of scripture i know it because he told me so.
Rooch,
We all “Worship the hell” out of stuff. Some of us worship the hell out of scripture, some worship the hell out of Joseph Smith, some Brigham young and some worship the belief that they don’t worship anything.
Coming unto christ is more than just rejecting what is wrong rooch, it is loving your self and others, as Christ does.
“god does not care about your definitions of scripture i know it because he told me so.”
What if I were to say that god does not care about what you think he told you, I know because he told me so? That is not playing like an adult is it? you are setting yourself up as the “scripture” to be worshiped now.
What is the definition of the word “scripture” to you? The definition that you find so appalling?
i refuse to play as an adult! adults are just angry children dressed in troll suits. anyway, christ said to become like little children, lol.
tunecedamils, i don’t disagree with anything you said. well maybe the adult part. but you are absolutely right! to the degree that i set myself up as scripture is an abomination! to the degree that I am broken and am full of both spite and love at the same time is just a reflection of what I really am, and no man should heed my words or anyone elses unless it brings them love or light or release or hope or awakening or something. amen, tune!
like you said so well “Coming unto christ is more than just rejecting what is wrong rooch, it is loving your self and others, as Christ does. ” i agree! so why the hell are we still talking about scriptures?! we are a world of broken people, lets figure out where the love is. and lets argue like the children that we really are until we find it.
and its not that i find any particular definition of scripture appalling, its that i find the need to define it at all is appalling. well perhaps appalling is the wrong word, i am not appalled, just feeling very passionate and animated about it. it would make more sense if we were talking face to face, i would probably seem less angry, lol. although i do have a very angry little monster inside of me, so watch out.
but i still boldy claim god does not care about everyone’s definitions of scripture!
and, if god did tell you he didn’t care about what i think he told me, awesome! thats how the system works! if god tells you something to tell me please tell me, and i will decide whether or not it is from god for myself! it has nothing to do with being adults. my own dad claims to recieve revelation for me all the time that is in direct opposition to everything i am currently doing. what of it? i have rejected all of it based on my own revelation.
what do you think prophets are for? they tell people things god told them to say! but does that mean the prophet is setting himself up to be an idol? or is up to the person listening to discern what guidance to follow? does that mean the prophets aren’t playing fair?
perhaps all that is needed is a little life in these discussions! too much of the calculated wordplay makes me sick to my stomach. we are all very passionate and deep feeling people hiding behind guises. we weigh each word carefully, we say nice things, we refrain from saying other things, we stroke each other’s egos, we try to look a certain way.
anyway. thats that. lol
lol. concerning wordplay, rooch, i never said, “I am not a buddhist.” I said, “I ain’t no buddhist.” Of course, you are free to interpret that however you want, but as for me, I still don’t know what “ain’t” is a contraction of.
rooch, it is refreshing to read such right-brained writings.
I get the point of Idolatry. If any group gets that point, I think its this audience. And I have found it instructive to hear the various rants that are going on. Good stuff.
So, I’ve got a question then. In your mind, is this blog worthless? IS studying and searching and discussing ‘scripture’ (wherever it comes from) pointless? Since its all a waste of time and blatant idolatry worthy of distracting and killing the children of Zion?
What should we be doing to establish Zion, rooch?
Rooch, you are a bigoted hypocritical ass-hole. you are childish and childlike. and you are ugly. why won’t you just leave everyones’ idols alone!? seriously though, what an awesome discussion here. to me, it all boils down to the simple question of whether I am trying to control something I fear or whether I am looking toward redemption with faith. there is no middle ground between the two.
dan, you asked whether this blog is worthless. yes, much of it is to me. many of your posts reek of idolatry–and to be more specific, scripture worship. one example that comes to mind are the posts on the word of wisdom. discussing whether that comma should be there or not seems like a pharisaical waste of time. on the other hand, much of what has been written here has also inspired me and helped me feel redeeming love, helped me feel free to begin to release some of my own idols.
why do we even need to ask whether this blog is worthless, or whether studying and searching and discussing scripture are worthless? those questions remind me of the time i asked god whether i should continue to do my home teaching. rather than saying yes or no, he told me to be at peace and quit asking the question. the very act of asking that question was an act of idolatry for me.
Clearly, studying and searching and discussing scripture wasn’t much help to the pharisees. but on the other hand, i’ve had some very powerful experiences with the scriptures. so what gives? it all comes down to what is in our hearts, what motivates us. and we do not have control over that motivation. when we are motivated to do good, it is a gift from god. when he changes our hearts, that is redemption. but we so often want to control the outcome, to control whether we are doing good deeds or not. and that’s when the idolatry begins.
so what should we be doing to establish zion? absolutely nothing. that question is irrelevant. when we act out of love, we establish zion. and when we act out of fear, we establish babylon. trying to establish zion is like trying to become humble. it can’t be done. i think we’ll know what we should be doing to establish zion once we’re already doing it. in the meantime, I just want to enjoy amazing food with people i love while talking about super-awesome stuff. which sounds a helluvalot like zion to me.
I may be ugly, but at least I have never woke up running out of the room thinking my arm was missing.
well bryan pretty much said everything worth saying. amen.
if you really want to build zion, join my alliance in evony.
and yes evony is that game they advertised all over the internet with scantily clad women.
unfortunately there are none actually in the game.
SO you have me thinking a good deal. Which is a very good thing in my opinion.
I’ve decided I can’t fully agree, though I agree with your premise.
since we’ve brought them up, i’ve studied Buddhism and Hinduism a bit. And to me, what you are describing is what they are seeking. the removal of all human pain through Self actualization. They spend lives in meditation attempting to find that nirvana where all is love, and an individual can then stand and walk through society with only perfect love for all things. They reject pretty much everything outside of that one moment of epiphany, called enlightenment. Getting there takes everyone on a different path, and eventually a man can find release from mortal entrapment through this process. I’ve learned much from that doctrine. I find this very worthwhile, and even believe jesus doctrine as an individual to be nearly inline with it.
However, it never accomplishes anything in the world. Through eons the hope is that all intelligent beings will go through the same process and thus exalt all existence. IT takes the best individuals and isolates them from the world, absent of cummunity. On an individual level it would seem to work great. but man cannot be saved in eternity without a community to do so. The sons heart must turn to the fathers. The warned son must turn to his neighbor. Zion is a place and state of physical existence as much as a place of heart. and it takes work to get it, because zion must be built. Those things are in scripture, thus the point of scripture.
Basically, in place of Idolatry your paradigm has put idleness.
The religion you are describing isn’t the religion that Joseph gave to us. He studied and learned and translated and actively worked to build a zion community, and gave us instruction to do the same. He told us to do the works of Abraham if we want to sit in those thrones.
Nor of Abraham, who studied and knew the blessings which had been given the fathers, a higher priesthood, desired to search find and keep the commandments the Lord had given him, desired to have great knowledge as those he had read about had had. He left and sought his whole life for God. All while being the poster child for removing idolatry.
Its not the religion of the book of mormon, which was founded by Lehi and Nephi, who followed the Lords voice and killed laban to obtain scripture, got up and left the people and society of his youth and actively sought the lord by revelation and through scripture study. He prophecied of us and of that society that we will build.
Its not the religion of Moses, who took the time to write instructions for us, and actively sought a better world, even taking a couple of million people out of the place of there births into the desert. He brought a higher law from God to them and they rejected it, preferring to enjoy the moment.
ITs definitely not the religion of Jesus, who searched and studied the law, was a rabbi himself, quoted scripture throughout his ministry, called thousands to repent and turn to God, established an order of authority through which ordinances could be accomplished, fought idolatry with near violence in the temple, openly discussed and rebuked the doctors of the law on scriptural points, and commanded his disciples to preach repentance, rejection of sin and the establishment of ecclesia.
And of course paul who lived out that reality by preaching repentance, writing and expounding scripture and establishing seven communities (ecclesia) outside of the prevailing culture of the time.
That guy who actually pulled it off, enoch, had to preach repentance, taught the history of Adam, what Adam had taught and believed (scripture), and worked hard as a person to bring others out of a babylon existence to a place in the desert where Zion could be physically built and established, prepared to meet Zion from above here on the earth.
OF course, we wouldn’t even know what Zion was or what the word meant if it weren’t for scripture. We wouldn’t know who Jesus was and what that first covenant, the atonement, meant to us.
brian, you’re statement; “so what should we be doing to establish zion? absolutely nothing. that question is irrelevant. when we act out of love, we establish zion.” is problematic, as to act out of love requires action. often to act out of love requires preaching repentance and delineating truth from error. to desire Zion requires work, it requires change, it requires knowledge.
Over the course of this discussion i’ve heard that trying to remove sin is stupid and pointless. I’ve read that we should just try to love, so we can eat drink and be merry, quite working learning and trying to establish zion.
This is precisely what 2 Nephi 28 says would be taught, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and all will be well with us. Or of korihor who told us not to worry about sin, it doesn’t exist.
I guess in the end my point is that I believe in this search for removing all idolatry you’ve created another version of it very similar to the idolatry that brought buddha to forsake his child and wife in search of better things, by himself.
The religion of jesus Enoch and of NEphi and of Isaiah, all of whom knew what Zion is and will be, tells us to study the scritptures, discuss its viewpoints, seek revelation, work hard to bring about zion and Finally to find God and Christ in that search. Joesph’s tears for fallen Zion brought him redemption of his sins and more revelation. We have to rely on the scripture, whereever they come from, because that is a major way in which the Lord teaches us. until you can live as 3 Nephi, going from place to place in the spirit, the words of other spoken in the spirit serve as our markers and teachers to get us there.
The modern scriptures give us directions and descriptions of what we are to do, and it requires work.
And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost;
Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth.
Instead of finding a straight and narrow path that takes us to zion we end up on the winding and wondering path of the buddhist, wandering around for zion.
So it seems to me. Thanks again, this has been good soul-searching stuff.
“the religion you are describing isn’t the religion that joseph gave to us. ”
I think the response of rooch to a statement like this would be to say that a statement like that is Joseph worship… but I agree with you dan. I would just go further to say that the choices being discussed by rooch and bryan are not what jesus himself gave to us. It does appear to have a “lazy” element (although I admit that I have a lazy element as well).
In defense of rooch and bryan, if their “rejection of idols” as they see it is causing them to more fully understand and comprehend the Christ then more power to them. If it is bringing the fruits of the spirit into their lives then more power to them, but if the changes in their lives are just to slow down and not care, well, I fail to see that in the lives of any prophets or even the Savior.
Rooch, if your viewpoint is not causing you to become like Christ then it is wrong. I imagine your response would be “hell ya its wrong, all of our viewpoints are wrong” and to a point I agree, none is good but God, but he wants us to “come unto Christ” and be perfected in him. Are you coming unto Christ or are you simply rejecting everything, both good and bad, with the hope that when all dissapears in your life you will somehow see Jesus standing before you? I don’t see that as happening, but maybe I am wrong.
I understand the idea of worshiping the law, or worshiping Christ. I understand that the fruit of the tree of life is sweet and the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (the law) is better. I understand that their must be opposition in all things, even in scripture. I understand that a man must come unto Christ or he has not hope.
The thing that I think perhaps this dicsussion is missing is what exactly is coming unto Christ. Some think it is done through church attendance or serving in the temple. That sounds an awful lot like “works” to me and I reject it. Some believe that you come unto Christ by sitting on your ass, mooching off your parents, and playing video games as long as you recognize how fucked up the world is and claim to reject i all. I reject that mentality as well, because there is nothing Christlike in that mentality.
In the risk of appearing to worship scripture I want to quote one:
And now behold, I ask of you my brethern of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
Rooch, if you really have come unto Christ you will want to serve and love others, not because that will bring you “unto christ” but because you will love him and as a result of loving him you will love his children, this is the change in your heart, this is receiving his image in your countenance. If you think you have found the answer by saying that nothing you do matters, that everything is an idol, and you can waste away the remainder of your life then you are woefully mistaken. You do matter, you can’t save yourself, you are right with that. Absent the savior you are nothing.
I think it is good that you have rejected the mainstream ideas of working for our salvation because they are false and in the end they will fail us. But you have swung too far on the other side of the paradigim. If you have not seen him image in your countenace then “your way” of rejecting every “other way” is not working for you. You think your way is Christ’s way, I think it is not.
I know other men that teach very similar things that you do but I feel different reading their words. They feel right and just and true. they make me think that they are speaking from personal experiance and I want to listen to their message and love it. You have many of the right words, but your application is angry and that makes me think that it has not worked fro you yet, why would it work for me?
dan and tune, thanks for both of your comments and thoughts. the core issue here is that you, that we all, simply do not trust god and his love. deep down, we fear that if we completely put our trust in his love, we will become lazy, indolent korihors. that if we trust completely in him and not just a little in ourselves and in the arm of the flesh, that we will we become worthless winebibbers. that if we completely trust in him, we will leave our wife and children for some strange and incongruent buddhist life of solitary wandering. that if we completely trust in him, the angry, hurt little children inside each of us will be exposed and that others will no longer validate us.
since we fear that god will not give us the motivation to do those actions which we perceive are good, we fabricate the good actions. we study the scriptures because that’s what jesus and other prophets did, and we think that the actions themselves are righteousness, so we try to duplicate the end product. but as paul pointed out to the corinthians, all those actions are utterly worthless absent pure motivation.
the idolatry is not the idleness, it’s using our own efforts to try to not be idle because we fear idleness. the idolatry is the trust in our own efforts. the idolatry is that we try to control our lives because of our lack of trust in what god will or will not do with us. dan, it’s interesting that you seem to be lauding all the efforts of the prophets you mention. you say that enoch is “that guy who actually pulled it off” and “had to preach repentance, taught the history of adam, what adam had taught and believed (scripture), and worked hard as a person.” enoch didn’t pull anything off. god did. the point is not what enoch did, but why he did it. and that motivation of love was a gift of god.
you also focus on the jesus’ actions, rather than his intent. you say he “searched and studied the law [yes, but so did the pharisees], was a rabbi himself [yes, but so were the pharisees], quoted scripture throughout his ministry [yes, but so did the pharisees], called thousands to repent and turn to god [yes, but so did the pharisees], established an order of authority through which ordinances could be accomplished [yes, but so did the pharisees], fought idolatry with near violence in the temple [the pharisees believed so strongly that jesus was blasphemous and idolatrous that they killed him], openly discussed and rebuked the doctors of the law on scriptural points [the pharisees did the same to jesus], and commanded his disciples to preach repentance, rejection of sin [the pharisees did this as well--look at paul before his conversion] and the establishment of ecclesia [the pharisees did not do this]. so is the only difference between jesus and the pharisees that the pharisees preached the establishment of ecclesia and jesus preached against it? of course not. the difference, though many of the outward actions might look similar, was that the pharisees acted out of fear while jesus acted out of love.
dan you state that “we have to rely on the scripture, wherever they come from, because that is a major way in which the lord teaches us.” i couldn’t both agree and disagree more, lol. i’d say that we have to rely on god, however he chooses to communicate with us, no matter how or where those communications come. and that communication to us is scripture. but i sense that you mean something a little different from that. i sense that you are pretty proud of how much time you have invested in the books we call scripture (the books may or may not be scripture to us, depending on where our hearts are when we read them), that you are proud of how you are able to confound your church leaders because of your knowledge of the scriptures, that you are proud of your efforts and where they have brought you. and when someone is proud of what they have done, it is a sure sign that their motivations in so doing were not born entirely of love.
the words written in books are just that, words. little letters that when put together have some meaning to us. but every person’s interpretation of the same combination of letters may be different based on their lenses through which they see the world. so what do we need, more words to clarity and expound on the words that are already there? no, we need love. love will endow us with a clear understanding, so that we no longer see through a glass darkly. and when we are filled with that love, it may express itself through us in the form of writing more words and crying repentance. but it may also express itself through us in ways that would look like laziness and idleness to pharisees. and in all of these cases, i’d say that the outward expression of the inward love is what builds zion.
dan, you said “brian [sic
], you’re statement; ‘so what should we be doing to establish zion? absolutely nothing. that question is irrelevant. when we act out of love, we establish zion.’ is problematic, as to act out of love requires action. often to act out of love requires preaching repentance and delineating truth from error. to desire zion requires work, it requires change, it requires knowledge.” love does not require us to act. it compels us to act. and yes, i agree, that sometimes love compels us to preach repentance and to correct error. but fear can also compel us to do those things. while love often compels us to do outward acts that pharisees would call righteousness, love can also compel us to come unto jesus and take rest. and taking that rest is no less an action compelled by love that the act of studying scriptures or preaching repentance. when our focus is on the outward, and when we distrust god, we might judge someone who is living contentedly in jesus’ love as being idle. we might judge someone as being an angry little man on the pathway to destruction when it’s actually god’s love compelling them to quit fearing their anger and allow it to be exposed to the redeeming light of day. conversely, we might judge some who appears to be doing acts of righteousness as being righteous even when their hearts are filled with fear and distrust of god.
tune, to rooch you say “you have many of the right words, but your application is angry and that makes me think that it has not worked for you yet, why would it work for me?” yes, his application is often angry, as is mine, as is yours (i sense that you have a lot of anger and hurt buried deep within, but fearfully disguised in a way that magnifies its effect on the soul). but his application is also full of the spirit. the problem is that you are focused on the messenger and not the message. god often speaks to us through broken and imperfect vessels. thank goodness he does, because when we receive a message from a clearly sinful and broken man like rooch, it is much less likely that we will set up the messenger as an idol. but you are setting up rooch as an idol that you are trying destroy by focusing on his deficiencies-the idoltary is still that you are focused on him, and not out of love in an attempt to help rooch out of his brokenness, but out of fear that if you completely trusted in god you might outwardly end up looking a lot more like rooch than is comfortable for you (or maybe that’s just my deep fear i’m projecting onto you).
by the way, i love how these blogs enable all of us to have this discussion, but i also think that so much communication can be lost when all we have are the written words. here’s to hoping that one day we’ll all be able to get together and have these discussions in person sometime in the future, hopefully over some great food (grumpy goat’s pizza maybe? where are you these days tom?). Maybe we can spend some time eating, drinking, and being merry, then have some super-deep scriptural discussions, then go out and cry repentance to the world, all the while building zion.
hey guys, good discussion, thanks again for doing it, its been real. Good to have you!
if you do not feel the spirit or see the wisdom in what bryan just wrote you do not know god. that is scripture.
“if you do not feel the spirit or see the wisdom in what bryan just wrote you do not know god. that is scripture.”
I don’t think that I do see a ton of wisdom and perhaps I am wrong. I understand that we must give our lives over to the Lord but in the words I have been reading here I only see a couple of guys that seem to idolize the concept that they are nothing. THat is surely idolatrous. You claim that idolatry comes with not trusting God and his love deep down, I agree with that. But I also think believe that living a life as described above is simply another way to not trust god.
I don’t trust that god will help me doing any godlike thing so I sit at home all day talking about idols and how I have pretended to reject them, all the while living the most idolatrous life that I probably ever had. yes, you can’t save yourself, yes, trying to work just because you are scared the God will not save you is idolatrous, but making sure you don’t work because you think that all work is idolatrous is also idolatrous, you are not allowing the Lord to lead you because every time he does you misinterpret it as your own “prideful self”.
Both lifestyles will keep us from Christ, both lifestyles are idolatry.
Now to keep things honest I will have to admit that my life is plum full of idolotry as well. I seem to worship just about everything but the savior with my actions, but I do a damn fine job of worshiping him with my words, even ask me=).
“by the way, i love how these blogs enable all of us to have this discussion, but i also think that so much communication can be lost when all we have are the written words. here’s to hoping that one day we’ll all be able to get together and have these discussions in person sometime in the future, hopefully over some great food (grumpy goat’s pizza maybe? where are you these days tom?). maybe we can spend some time eating, drinking, and being merry, then have some super-deep scriptural discussions, then go out and cry repentance to the world, all the while building zion.”
But I can certainly agree with this.
i’m not pretending to have rejected idols. i’m hypocritically preaching the rejection of them while holding fast to more than a few. or maybe i really am pretending to have rejected idols and am just blind to it. or maybe right now i’m just pretending to be humble because i’m in need of a little validation that no one but god can give me but i don’t fully trust him to give me so i’m trying to get it somewhere else. and it’s true that i’ve often found in my journey that i’ve traded worship of one idol for worship of another idol. and what’s even better is that everytime i think i’ve given up one idol my eyes seem to be opened to a dozen others that i’m holding onto. god save me.
“trying to work just because you are scared the god will not save you is idolatrous, but making sure you don’t work because you think that all work is idolatrous is also idolatrous, you are not allowing the lord to lead you because every time he does you misinterpret it as your own ‘prideful self.’ both lifestyles will keep us from christ, both lifestyles are idolatry.” damn, beautifully said. amen and amen, and I feel so good about all this preaching against idolatry.
Perhaps the message that we all need to get is that we should not be focused on “preaching against” idolatry, but instead we should focus on “preaching repentance”. If we all can just truly re-pent and turn to Christ he will remove our idolatry, we don’t need to worry about it.
I would think that preaching “for” something will almost always do more good than preaching “against” something.
if i feel the spirit of love preaching against idolatry, that’s what i’m going to do and rejoice in, until i feel otherwise, no matter what other course of action might seem more prudent.
but i agree that we don’t need to worry about idolatry, cause that is just another form of idolatry.
well then we shall simply have to make bets. i bet a dinner at i-hop (my church) that god is building zion through me playing my video games.
when you come join me in zion, play some video games with me, and are overcome with the spirit, i win the bet. any takers?
so we are not supposed to work, we are not supposed to not not work. so instead of not not working or working we preach for something instead of against something! problem solved! or not. if we don’t get the intent part we don’t get anything, and without pure intent our actions are vain. it’s clear to me that when you try to hold onto fear, you end up making convoluted arguments to try to reconcile fear and love, but it’s an impossible task. it’s one or the other. love or fear. zion or babylon. god or mammon. at any given moment we cannot serve both. though i am proficient at switching between the two. maybe i’ll apply for a patent on my method of doing so. problem is, i haven’t often felt the spirit writing patents. though i must admit that i have felt the spirit while slaying nazi zombies with machine guns.