Exodus imagery is prevalent throughout the Book of Mormon. For instance, there are 7 actual unique exoduses in the Book of Mormon time line, as pointed out by Gileadi. Add to that all of the times that exoduses are referred to, such as Lehi’s and Mose’s moves, and all of the times that exoduses are prophesied, including Nephi, Jacob and Isaiah describing our own future exodus and even the exodus of Columbus and we see that the Book of Mormon is full to the brim of these types. We have to ponder the question of why? Why are these things brought to the surface so often, when so much of Nephite history is not included? The editors use exoduses and revolutions in their times as well as those in times past to describe and illustrate our own events as we will soon see. All these events of exodus under the direction of the Lord are at their hearts a rebellion from the evil and destructive spiritual practice of the cultures the people are then leaving.
It being the new year, I thought it appropriate to discuss a fundamental change that the scriptures refer to, to which the gentiles will be required to conform. Exodus imagery illustrates this type of change well. From Isaiah, 1 Nephi 14, 3 Nephi 16, etc, it is apparent that a revolution of the Lords people will be needed. Revolution. That is quite a word. The root of the word in Latin is revolutio, meaning to ‘turn around’. This is fascinating to me as the word repent, or shuv in Hebrew, means to ‘turn around’. When the Lord finally ‘turns’ the heart of the children to the fathers and turns wholly to His house it will require that some repent (gentiles) and that the rest go with this Israelite revolution. Using this tie we can begin to see some scriptures in another light. “Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they arepent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy bchariots”. In my mind, when it is uttered, images of violence and stunning bravery come to mind. A vision of patriots of one sort or another exhibiting great courage in the face of overwhelming odds is seen. Though, from a definition in the omniscient Wikipedia, violence may not be needed to perform the change, “it’s a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time.”
The revolution I have in mind, as always, is the one spoken of here by Orson Pratt;
What kind of a revolution would it work among the Latter‑day Saints if the revelation given in March, 1831, were carried out by them, “It is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in s in?” How much of a revolution would it accomplish in Sa lt Lake City if this order of things should be brought about? I think it would work a greater revolution among this people than has ever been witnessed amongst them since they had an existence as a Church. (JD 15:355‑356)
……………………
There must be a reformation. There will be a reformation among this people, but He will plead with the stronger ones of Zion, He will plead with this people, He will plead with those in high places, He will plead with the priesthood of this church, until Zion shall become clean before him. I do not know but what it would be an utter impossibility to commence and carry out some principles pertaining to Zion right in the midst of this people. They have strayed so far that to get a people who would conform to heavenly laws it may be needful to lead some from the midst of this people and commence anew in the regions round about in these mountains. (JD 15:360)
Interesting choice of words here, ‘reformation’ rather than ‘restoration’. The gospel is on the earth and the keys remain, in fact the Lord in section 86 tells us that a group of people have retained the priesthood, hidden from the world. Indeed, it has no need to be restored. The restoration about to happen will be of the promises to the house of Israel, that they may be gathered and have the protection and guidance of their God. As yet we have not qualified for this. But, a restoration of the Gospel will not be needed, a people will be called to repent and gather or repent and return. A fundamental change of the status quo will happen though. This is a revolution, the event we are so looking forward too.
I have often been drawn to this idea of revolution in a sort of romantic way. The movies I love seem to all incorporate this idea of a people willing to give all for a way of life foreign and wierd to the rest of the world. Those that participate and pull off such a revolution are heros, generally always zealots for the right cause. In fact, I hope dearly that I may be allowed to play a part in a revolution of our own, when the Lords pleas are finally heard and His people zealous of His cause are given His power and protection.
The first thing that a revolutionary needs to pinpoint is his cause. We must know and understand what we want to be (Zion) and where we are now (Babylon). The scriptures provides descriptions for us considering the things the we must rebel from , and those we must adopt. As we commit to this process it is natural to see some remarkable change in the way we view the world, as well in the way the world views us. Like the Ugly Duckling, once that one little bird starts to grow and change color so much quicker than the rest, the truth is soon known as to his real identity. The Lord is trying to tell us that we are ALL swans and the time to change is now, no longer to remain as ducks in muddy water. An Ugly (marred) Duckling it will take to stand up out of the vomit and ask Israel to crawl out of the mire and reclaim its place in the Lords hand. A revolutionary person like Moses.
In many ways, Nephi was like unto Moses. So he knew somewhat what he was talking about considering this future prophet and the event surrounding his calling. At the end of Nephis first book he is about to commence his second exodus. He picks up and moves his people, those who will follow the Lord, out of the majority, in order to live the laws of God unfettered. This event changed the organizational and power hierarchy rather quickly. It is a revolution performed in a non-violent manner. All those willing to revolt simply remove themselves. Prior to leaving, violence had been inflicted on Nephi, being beaten, tied up, ridiculed, etc… And Nephi was a leader willing to submit to Gods will and rely on Him for power. He’s a marred servant of sorts who is finally given direction and invited to revolt, to leave again to live another way.
The next post will start an analysis of 1 Nephi22 through 2 Nephi 5. These are the scriptures and descriptions which Nephi uses to describe his own exodus, being one like unto Moses. As we will see He and His father go WAY out of their way to give to us a description of our own future events, using this seemingly simple move of a family away from another to show us what we are now seeing today and will soon see in our midst.
“Interesting choice of words here, ‘reformation’ rather than ‘restoration’. The gospel is on the earth and the keys remain, in fact the Lord in section 86 tells us that a group of people have retained the priesthood, hidden from the world. Indeed, it has no need to be restored.”
That is an interesting interpretation and associated opinion.
You might find it interesting to note that the restoration of the church in 1830 was very apparently referred to as a “reformation” by the Lord.
The following statement was made in a revelation in 1829;
“And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a reformation among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old. And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I will deliver them up unto Satan, for he reigneth and hath power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation; and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them. Behold I tell you these things even as I also told the people of the destruction of Jerusalem, and my word shall be verified at this time as it hath hitherto been verified. (D&C 5:20 compared with Book of Commandments IV:5. parts of the passages were later removed when the D&C was published.)
Also, your reference to section to section 86 hardly proves that the priesthood KEYS are on the earth todays since,
1) section 86 is NOT referring to priesthood KEYS and
2) it is referring to inherited priesthood, which has always been on the earth, even during the dark ages.. it is not referring to the priesthood offices that require ordination… ie, such as were restored by John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, etc.
admittedly, the word restoration and reformation are both applicable to both time periods. are we arguing just for the sake of it?
The DC section 13 do say that the priesthood, and it mentions keys, will not be removed until Levi offers his sacrifice.
Even inherited priesthood, as you put it, is an authority and power. And to keep that priesthood one must still meet the requirements of a covenant son or daughter. For this reason, those hid from the world whose priesthood has remained, have remained as covenant people with priesthood they are able to use, to the eventual salvation of all Israel as section 86 points out. There is no priesthood worthy of use in a people that the world is aware of. However, the lord has informed us who they are, hidden from the world.
Your post is appreciated, though odd. IT seems condescending when apparently we both see things the same as far as priesthood goes and it ability to be used in the gentile church at this moment. As if you write here only to show superiority, like two bull moose in full rut grunting at each other stiff legged, trying to get a point across just for the sake of it…?
I am sorry you feel that my intent was to show superiority.
i don’t think that was my intent.
it is difficult to know how to approach someone when you disagree with them but want to try to avoid being too caustic or confrontational.
The simple fact of the matter is that i do disagree with your declaration and was trying to avoid sounding too critical and argumentative… I was trying to show that the evidence you provided, in my opinion, does not provide a compelling case for the conclusion you have drawn.
as a result, I apparently came off sounding arrogant and wanting to look superior.
I am sorry for how I apparently sounded.
the declaration you made that I am referring to is your authoritative declaration that,
“The gospel is on the earth and the keys remain, in fact the Lord in section 86 tells us that a group of people have retained the priesthood, hidden from the world. Indeed, it has no need to be restored.”
I realize that most mainstream church members agree with your statement that the keys of the priesthood that were delivered to Joseph have remained on the earth.
you need to realize however that this particular blog also attracts not only mainstream lds, but also some who are Lds fringe.. people who feel free to question authority and to think the unthinkable.
Since my attempt at being diplomatic has failed and I am now out of the closet with regard to having admitted that I believe there is yet another restoration coming up, let me simply clarify why I find your evidence lacking.
First of all, with regard to the statement from Pratt, as I pointed out, and as you have acknowledged, a restoration can also be referred to as a reformation. the terms may be used interchangeably.
additionally, if a restoration is needed, a previous falling away may have taken place at or before the martyrdom, or some time before pratt made the statement, in which case, pratt could become a questionable authority on the matter anyway.
regarding priesthood keys. if the priesthood mentioned in section 86 which has always been on the earth contains all of the keys necessary to dispense the fulness of the gospel, then why was it necessary for the lord to restore the two priesthoods through john the baptist and peter james and john?
joseph smith clearly is one of the ones through which the priesthood has remained, nevertheless, the lord found it necessary to have messengers with priesthood ordinations and/or priesthood keys deliver them to to joseph and others.
Apparently, that priesthood which has remained is not sufficient to dispense the saving ordinances of the Gospel.
please understand, this response is not a personal attack on you. nor does it have anything to do with who is superior, nor am i intentionally trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. I am simply sharing with you why i disagree with a declaration you have made.
i would invite you to find a more compelling argument to show that there does not need to be a complete restoration of priesthood keys in the marvelous work and a wonder that is yet to come forth.
I appreciate the thought you put into the post and look forward to other more compelling evidences that would indicate that we have the same priesthood power and keys that peter james and john had… as well as joseph smith.
Anonymous,
Thanks! Great to hear from you. I understand wholly, being “on the fringe” myself, and then some. You are welcome here, and I apologize too if my response lacked refinement. Just looking for clarity, and you gave it. Having you respond and disagree is one of the main reasons I write here, and wish more people will speak up, in love and with pure knowledge. We don’t need to agre or need a moderator, we do however both need to be seeking with open minds!
I think perhaps I will take you up on this;
“i would invite you to find a more compelling argument to show that there does not need to be a complete restoration of priesthood keys in the marvelous work and a wonder that is yet to come forth.”
I don’t believe that the same power and keys are today being used, at least not in front of the public. I definitely don’t feel that they are in use in the ‘mainstream’ church, it being so far from the original intent as to warrant a site such as this, and a comment such as the one orson gave us above over a hundred years ago. I would not be surprised to find out that heber c kimball was correct in teaching that a group of people would always remain, if hidden from the world, with the highest authority, that of the firstborn. The Church of the firstborn, hidden from the world, with keys authority and power.
This people here are the people of God. Here, in the Territory of Deseret, is the KINGDOM OF GOD, and here are all the officers pertaining to that kingdom; and here is an organization that is organized AFTER THE ORDER OF GOD, AND IT IS ORGANIZED AFTER THE ORDER OF THE CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN.
Let me explain what the CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN is. It is the first Church that ever was raised up upon this earth; that is, the first born Church. That is what I mean; and when GOD OUR FATHER ORGANIZED THAT CHURCH, He organized it just as His Father organized the Church on the earth WHERE HE DWELT; and that same order is organized here in the City of Great Salt Lake; and it is that order THAT JOSEPH SMITH THE PROPHET OF GOD ORGANZED IN THE BEGINNING IN KIRTLAND, OHIO. Brother Brigham Young, myself, and others were present when that was done; and WHEN THOSE OFFICERS RECEIVED THEIR ENDOWMENTS, THEY WERE TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE. They were organized, and received their endowments and blessings, and THOSE KEYS were placed upon them, and that KINGDOM WILL STAND FOREVER.
Now mark it — that KINGDOM will never be overthrown; although they may kill, THAT IS, IF THEY CAN, brother Brigham and me, and brother Daniel H. Wells, and they may kill the Apostles,if they can,and so they may keep on from this time to all eternity, and they never can obliterate this work. I know it. They may kill, and destroy, and waste a great many limbs that are upon this Church; but let me tell you, they never can kill the tree nor destroy the root from whence we have sprung; FOR OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD IS THAT ROOT, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the tree or vine, AND WE SPRING OUT OF THAT VINE. (Journal of Discourses 5:129–130)
Elder Rigdon after he came from Pittsburg never attended council only when he could not avoid it. He has no authority only what he receives from the Church.. He was not in the COUNCIL PERTAINING TO THE HIGH PRIEST- HOOD until just before he started for Pittsburgh. Brother Phelps was the means of bringing him in, but he has not got the same authority as others; there are MORE than thirty men who have got HIGHER AUTHORITY than he has . . . . . . There are men here brethren who have got authority, but we don’t want to mention their names, FOR THE ENEMY WILL TRY TO KILL THEM. (Times & Seasons 5:663–664)
From the parable in section 101 we learn a couple of things about the eventual redemption of Zion by power. When Joseph is told to go back to redeem the vineyard of those slothful servants who had let it spoil, turning its riches over to Babylon and its walls and towers to their own use, he does so by scattering the watchmen, breaking down their walls (organization?) and avenging hi enemies. This sounds like a complete upheaval, restoration if you will. It is certainly referred to there as a redemption. However, a point to be made there is that the servant returning to do all this and return things to proper order comes having already received all the keys pertaining to that gathering and building. In that sense, with the founder coming with the keys and no need to receive them again…
Also from Isaiah and Nephi we are told that the Gentile remnant will be the nursing mothers and fathers of Israel in that last day. I believe this implies that the gospel is given from a Gentile (by birth) to Israelite. Though very few Gentiles will remain, and certainly not the organization as now exists, as illustrated in the parable above.
The scriptural types also suggest that someone within the gentile or Babylonian culture will have authority, exalt a portion of Israel and with that exalt all of Israel, as a root in dry ground. Moses, Joseph and Alma for instance. All grew up amongst Babylon and saved Israel from that position. Alma’s position is especially poignant, having received his priesthood from a fallen leader in Noah, and then being allowed to exercise it fully after repentance.
considering the entities who will commence this event of Zion being redeemed, secion 113 uses intriguing language;
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
(again, does it need to be restored, if it has already been given?)
7 Questions by Elias Higbee: What is meant by the command in Isaiah, 52d chapter, 1st verse, which saith: Put on thy strength, O Zion—and what people had Isaiah reference to?
8 He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost.
(this verse seems to say rather outright that priesthood authority has been lost…but that using it again is simply a means of repentance. Putting that power back on, like Alma did in the waters of mormon.)
On the flip side, realizing that all the things I am saying could be argued against, I would agree that a complete restoration of priesthood power to the earth is feasible. However, I do not see the need, since that is the very purpose that Joseph was given the keys in the first place, and the very purpose that he retains them to this day. Also, allowing for repentance of some few gentiles, priesthood authority would be around to be passed on, as nursing mothers, to Israel. And a righteous servant head with the authority and power to use them in behalf of the people will also be found. anyway, thanks for the discussion.
There is a scripture that solidifies this argument in the D&C, I am having trouble finding it at the moment though. When I do, I’ll pass it along.
I think the most important thing is that we are both watching and waiting for the upcoming establishment of Zion.
That is where we are in agreement. and it is wonderful to find others who share that vision.
As far as how it is going to take place, we all have our various theories.
as far as restoration of priesthood keys is concerned, i think there are two main issues.
one has to do with whether the priesthood needs to be restored to the earth, the other is whether they need to be restored to the servant(s) that lead the Saints in establishing zion.
One has to do with whether Gods servant(s) that orchestrate the marvelous work are existing mortals living on the earth who need to have the keys given to them and thereby restored to the earth in that fashion.. similar to how the priesthood was given to joseph and oliver
OR
whether god returns servant(s) from the past who already hold the keys. In that sense, the keys are being restored to the earth but not to the servants… because the servants already hold the keys.
it seems to me that YOur quote about Js having the keys in life and death becomes significant if in fact he is going to return with the keys to resume the work he started as promised by god in section 101 and 103..
that happens to be my view…
(of course there are those who think joseph will simply return as a ministering angel to restore the keys to an existing mortal)
i get the opinion from what you wrote that you may be somewhat conflicted on the issue as to whether god will use a new prophet figure or one from the past such as joseph.
some of what you wrote makes it sound as if you are open to js and others returning. some of what you wrote seems to indicate that you think there is a person or group of people hidden in this world who are just waiting for the appointed time and for their dormant priesthood keys to be actuated.
It seems to me that there are two general types of lds fundamentalists.
the most common type of lds fundamentalists are those who think that the church went astray sometime after the death of brigham young. these people are either currently practicing polygamy or they strongly believe they will need to begin practicing it when the work resumes. to them, the greater priesthood is found in the temple endowment that brigham young established.
those fundamentalists put a huge degree of credibility on and are always profusely quoting the journal of discourses… like you do.
from what I have read of your remarks, it would appear to me that you would be in that category. Please correct me if i am wrong.
the other type of fundementalists ( a very small minority) would be those who believe in the very first and fundemental teachings of the gospel that were revealed by revelation during the first six years after the legal restoration of the church.
That group of people focus on the “law” that was given in section 42. They believe that the fulness of the gospel and the priesthood and everything necessary to redeem zion was given within the first few years of the restoration movement. They believe that the fulness of the gospel was had among the gentiles and was also rejected by them between 1830 and 1836 which is the reason the temple in jackson county was not redeemed by the appointed time of sept 11 1836..
from 1837 on, after the church had to flee from Kirtland, the church struggled and was unsuccessful in getting the fulness back that had been lost during that time.
Those with that religious world view rely strictly on the four standard works and a huge emphasis on the historical events that took place between 1827-1844.
I would fall into the second category.
for that reason, you and i very possibly have a different perception of how things will unfold.
nevertheless, as i said in my opening statement, the important thing that we share in common with each other and not with many mainstream members is that we are looking forward to the eminent redemption of zion and much greater priesthood power and authority than what is currently observable on this earth.
From the sounds of it I am very conflicted!
or perhaps I don’t portray my thoughts well in writing.
a) I believe Joseph will be coming back, literally, to perform the wrk amongst us gentiles, and on to the house of Joseph wholly and eventually all of Israel. Several of my posts on this blog portray that. His last dream is good evidence, the section you mentioned are sound, the promise of his calling in DC combined with section 85 too. AS well as all of the unfulfilled work of the choice seer in 2 nephi who comes with the One like moses.
b) My belief then is that there is a group of people who are dormant who have been waiting for that time to be used as a strength for Israel. They will act under the direction of this choice seer & OMS, being instrumental in the revolution of Israel on this continent, the angel over of this corner of the earth. They will be the people that rise up under that direction, and all men will be called to repent and discern sides by the HG.
c) I actually believe as you do, that Kirtland was pretty much it for the saints. They failed that, as the D&C point out so blatantly. I do however believe that a portion of the spirit remained with the people. The spirit of Prophecy and the keys of the kingdom still remained in small circles, in an incredible display of long suffering. but, eventually all hope was lost as the people continues to exalt shallowness and reject exaltation. the JD I believe to be rich with instruction from people who had been taught and instructed by Joseph intimately, or were at least closley conversant with that radical way of life and thought. They are the closest thing we have time wise as far as a glimpse into the thought and way of life that was intended for us. perfect? not by a long shot. Like you I believe that Kirtland was the chance for Zion to be redeemed, for power to be brpught, etc… but also like most fundies in group 1, I believe that the show wained and was finally pretty much over and the smoke cleared by 1890. John taylor put up an impressive display of relying on the lord, and staying true to the faith in spite of persecution, along with recording revelation. There is still a strong argument to be made from the scriptures and comments by president’s taylor, young and the DC that the church of the firstborn remains hidden-which also leaves keys on the earth to continue priesthood. regardless, once the Davidic Servant and his Aaron are here, keys will be too.
Conflicted I am…thanks for the conversation.
thank you for the clarification..
it seems we have much in common
thanks for the post
may zion return soon
Thanks for the discussion…it’s been fun to sit back and see the dialogue between you two. If Kirtland was the “top”, so to speak, what does that make today?
cesspool
Hopefully it puts us at the bottom of the drop, soon with nowhere to go but up.
Anonymous, give us your name our something to go by. If you can’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
good to have you.
thanks for the comments guys.
I don’t really go by a name because I want to encourage people to judge doctrinal content on its own merits rather than to attach a “credibility quotient” to it based on perceived “author credibility”.
I prefer to not acquire a perceived credibility quotient as an identifiable author.
I, like everyone else, get some things right and some things wrong.
each time i pontificate, the doctrinal content that i generate should be heavily scrutinized by anyone taking it seriously…
the next time you hear from an “anonymous” you’ll need to really study the content to know if it is me or someone else authoring the remarks… and even then… you won’t know for sure.
thank you for the thoughtful posts..
this is one of the few blogs worth visiting..
just given you a hard time.
my guess is that the anonymous poster above is mrs. watcher (mrs. owiw).
I was gonna guess that it was Mr Watcher but that is just cause I have not read much from the Mrs.
Either way, I am sure that you are both very welcome here.
“reformation” …a perfect word choice. no need to restore what already exists. reformation invokes the image of “Back up and Regroup”. the part of the pattern of the cycle involving revolutionary change toward restoration, is best described by using that word.
the final restoration following this coming reformation ( regrouping ), would be the return of the king being “restored” his throne. the whole exodus adventure sort of reminds me of some of the imagery contained in the lord of the rings, where the main objective is to restore the rightful king, only it’s real !
you are very intuitive and really cause a person to think and want to add his two cents worth. it’s education at it’s very best !
in reading dan’s comment, i too, can undersatnd your reasoning for believing joseph smith could be the servant except for a couple of details in the scriptures that don’t figure him as being the servant.
to me he fits the type but not the actual person and here is my understanding…
this person is to be a sevant in the hands of christ and become marred but not hurt. joseph’s death would preclude that description of not being hurt.
also, the way isaiah is describing him, you get the impression that the servant is living among those whom he will eventually serve. he is first rejected, then must be reestablished by the lord.
isaiah says the lord calls this servant to the place of his foot ( or Presence ). “calls” sugests that he is coming from some place “other” than where god is “calling” him to.
after this servant would be taken from earth to heaven as was enoch, he would recieve his comission and power from god and sent back.
this would explain the one mighty and strong in section 85 as being “sent” from god’s ( presence ) clothed with light ( new translated body ) for a covering ( body for his spirit ).
And 113 describing him as being given great power. angels are like that !
joseph having died in the flesh as a mortal, could not be translated but rather resurected. and resurected beings are not to have prolonged interfacing contact in the affairs of a tellestial world.
they just come to deliver keys or messages. but a translated person as is being described by isaiah as going to the place where god rests his feet then returning him with a mission, is consistent with enoch being the type for this prior to the first destruction of the world.
the servant would be living among us, be rejected at some point, then being restored by god.
this person seems to be chrit’s alter ego as johnathan was to david. and as such, must be an aweful lot like jesus but in a very different way…
his rejection and consequent “marring” ( “spiritual death” by Spiritually smearing his reputation through rejection and excommunication ), then subsequent travels to heaven to recieve his call from god and being sent back, ( sets his “hand” the second time ), creates the type and image of the saviors rejection, death, resurection and return of christ…afterall, he is the final and most perfect type for christ…The HG.
Valsky,
I first want to say, welcome aboard! Your comments and presence are very appreciated here. You’ve commented on several posts and again, its appreciated. Always good to hear another voice.
Thanks for discussing servant Ideologies with us. I don’t believe Joseph is the “servant” but that he is “a” servant, whom we will see on the stage again. WE could get into specifics, but first I’d like to challenge a thought you wrote here, in good taste and without animosity in the least. Mostly, for discussions sake.
“joseph having died in the flesh as a mortal, could not be translated but rather resurrected. and resurrected beings are not to have prolonged interfacing contact in the affairs of a tellestial world.”
My question being, can a resurrected being, especially a celestial one which surely Joseph is, choose death, again, for the salvation of men? It seems to be your assertion that this thought is without the bounds of reasoning. Though, admittedly my whole paradigm and belief system is now built with this core belief in it. To be brief, I offer only one scripture. Speaking of beings who live the celestial order DC 76 states;
Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death…
If then, Death is theirs, upon their choosing, what is to prevent Joseph, the Savior, Father Abraham, Michael, etc… from condescending to mortality, purposely falling, that they might continue to play a role in the exaltation of men in this sphere? And thus act as Servants and angels to the world and gathering of Israel. Forget not to entertain strangers, in so doing many have entertained angels unawares.
Again, Its very good to have you. Feel free to email personally if you would rather. God speed
dan.lastdays@gmail.com
joseph did chose death. it was his martyerdom. some die as martyers and others are called to “live”.
once we progress beyond current circumstances we are called to serve, such as joseph dieing as a martyer, it is counter to the laws of heaven to regress.
remember…christ was a spirit before offering himself up as a sacrifice in our preexistant past, in order to “descend”. in doing so, he gained something he didn’t previous have…a body which could have been provided for him without his having to make that sacrifice. otherwise how could it be a sacrifice ?
but christ was the only one of us who fits that bill of perfection. joseph could not possibly rescend resurection for our sakes and die again without assuming that he himself is christ.
christ was the only one to pocess perfection to begin with and be in a position of being able to give something up.
the rest of us were dependant on his love and kindness.
yes, joseph is to take part in this final cause just as gosd promised him. but his contribution must conform to the restrictions of celestial law that he now personifies.
just as moses did not enter the promised land, so too was joseph’s fate at the time of his first call.
what he began was something intended for another to complete.
what joseph did was vital and intrensic to making it possible for the walls and roof of the lord’s kingdom to be errected upon the gospel foundation he laid.
what is about to take place, is going to require a member of deity to be given great power to accomplish.
a member who had been serving in his anti mortal state, laying and clearing the path to christ and the father since the begining of time.
now that we are near it’s end…he is here in the flesh to finish what he began. and god’s promise to joseph was a type for that.
in your article above, you describe a process of revolution, that as it applies to our current set of circumstances, is now only lacking one element…the “catylis” ( servant ) necessary to “gel” the seperate ingredients to the recipe.
there is a type and president for this revolutionary process you describe, that applies to our sistuation.
it is found in the dead sea scrolls.
the original teacher of righteousness was john the baptist called to prepare the “way” for the lord’s first coming. he ( the teacher of righteousness ), therein compares himself to a latter day teacher of righteousness like unto himself, yet greater than him, whom will prepare the “way” for christ’s second coming.
where in christ refered to no prophet being greater than john born among women…was a vieled reference to the “final” teacher of righteous being greater than all preceeding prophets with the exception of christ.
this makes him fall somewhere between all men and god. now how has served in that position since the time of adam till now ? who brings people unto christ and christ in turn, brings unto the father ?
in the dead sea scrolls, this final teacher of righteousness only makes his appearance after the the men of the “revolutuion” have been “groping in the dark like blind men” knowing there is a “cause” but not understanding how to make it gel.
this final servant of gos is to have the power and understanding to be able to elevate a people to a higher ( terrestrial ) level of being. this “IS” the “WAY” being refered to in terms of preparing for the second coming.
and just as enoch, who was also a type for this servant, was taken from the earth and then given great power and a commission to return to the earth, so too will this same process occure for a man living among us now.
he dose pocess the knowledge of his mission but is yet to recieve his call and power to initiate it.
it is only “months” away…the “groping” of the men of the covenant of our day, ( the 144,000 ), has been going on for the better part of 20 years now…and all the “other” signs are rapidly falling into place.
the “woman Zion” has transitioned to 9 and is about to give birth to the man child to be sent from father, to initiate this Great work. and work side by side with his brother jesus christ. with jesus to “assist” him in his mission, just as the holy ghost assisted his brother in his…
as the sacrifice of “TWO” goats where necessary in bringing about the salvation of man kind under the fore shadowing laws of moses ,….one sacrifice was to die ( christ ) and the other ( holy ghost ), was to live and bear the burdens of iniqity, untill the first sacrifice ( christ ) “Healed” him and then “EMPOWERS” him. the second goat’s job was to “sanctify” the souls of those who had their sins removed by the sacrifice of the first goat ( christ ).
salvation was a covenant between 3 and supervised by 1 and wrought by 2.
just as christ played an anti mortal and mortal roll in this, as we all are doing, so too dose the holy spirit…
one more observation regarding the servant.
isaiah refers to him as the “hand” of god. how many hands dose god have ? TWO?
one of those hands ( the right hand of god ), christ is apparent and so too would be the “left” hand of god.
the Holy ghost represents the fallen to be saved as was eve. Adam represents christ…the one who saves eve by voluntarilarly going to her aid.
and this is symbolized in the endowment….at what position dose a bride stand next to her husband or women in general as you are seated in the endowmwnt room ? to the left ?
left is a symbol for the fallen state of man that must be raised by the right hand of god.
yet for what useful purpose did eve fall ? that we might be….?
so it becomes obvious, that while each serch seperate roles, they both serve the same cause.
by the spirit appearing in the flesh you will envision the “other” side of the Gospel equation.
where as jesus favors his father, the holy spirit, like jacob, favors his mother…these are things of heaven that we must prepare for, not just establishing the requirements of the terrestrial kingdom and it’s inhabitants, but some of us are going to move beyond that and need to be prepared as well.
are you getting the “whole” picture now ?…
those who we are now here to serve, who are about to transition to the terrestrial order, are going to accept christ as their god.
christ in turn serves as a type for a father whom they will never see for not having accepted christ on god’s terms.
yet we of the celestial order are to come back to the presence of our father. but are we fully prepared for that ?
dose the father stand alone ? how much do you know of our mother ? do you think this is something important we need to understand ?….the relationship they collectively bear ? …God hood ?
god hood can not be comprehended through the priesthood alone. what is about to occur for us as far as, we, the celestial candidates are concerned, is to witness the perfect pairing of husband and wife through the marrige of the servant to his bride.
this will provide “REAL” understanding of the relationship we have with both heavenly parents. and what our relationships with our wives “should be”.
though christ was obviously married at the time he walked the earth, his marrige was kept low profile in order to emphasize the “male” role of salvation as our father’s representive.
and though the servant will represent the father as well, he will also, by virtue of his subordinate yet equal role to christ, reflect the image of our mother in heaven…wife to our father.
this “equality” asspect is the reason “this” particular work must be established by the father as opposed to christ who is equal with this final servant the holy spirit, and preside as the third party officiator and witness to the great last work that brings “ALL” the elements of salvation and heaven into full view….else how else could we prepare ourselves for that which is to come ?…
Then valsky, you don’t believe that Adam was an exalted being when he came here to the earth? Though that was Josephs doctrine, and others? If then you believe that Joseph only chose death once, in the 1840′s, he now as a celestial being does not have the choice of death. So all things are no longer his. Brigham and Joseph and many others definitely agreed that they could indeed choose death, again. Adam no doubt did, having come here as a celestial being and falling that man may be. That is not contrary to the order of heaven, its directly in line with it. Humiliation and suffering are necessary. And when done in this way they enable men to become Fathers in the Covenant, seeds without number.
Joseph Smith
Sayings of Joseph the Prophet, as recorded in Anson Call’s Journal
“Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet an immortalized Being and brought his wife, Eve, with him and by eating of the fruit of this earth became subject to death and decay, and He became of the earth, earthy, was made mortal and subject to death.”
Or perhaps Brigham;
Brigham Young
When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. JD 1:50
Brigham Young 1/27/1860
Minutes of a meeting of the First Presidency Michael was a resurrected Being and he left Elohim and came to this earth & with an immortal body, & continued so till he partook of earthly food and begot children who were mortal.
Or how about the original lecture at the veil in the temple which read;
“Adam was an immortal being when he came. On this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. … Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh, bones and sinews.”
The Lecture at the Veil Tuesday 2/7/1877
Journal of L. John Nuttall
But then what of Joseph?
“Lift up your head and rejoice; for behold! it is well with my servants Joseph and Hyrum. My servant Joseph still holds the keys of my kingdom in this dispensation, and he shall stand in due time on the earth, in the flesh, and fulfill that to which he is appointed…” (A revelation given to Parley. P. Pratt. Autobiography of PPP, pg. 294, 1985 edition.)
“So it is with the Prophet Joseph Smith. He has gone before with the keys of this dispensation, after having lived and conferred them upon the authorities of the Church, even all that was necessary until he shall come again to build up this kingdom preparatory to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Franklin D. Richards referring to Joseph Smith. JD 26:302)
“I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.
Should not this thought comfort all people? They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever. It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption. You will be thankful, every one of you, that Joseph Smith, junior, was ordained to this great calling before the worlds were.
I told you that the doctrine of election and reprobation is a true doctrine. It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people, and receive the fulness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God.” (JD 7: 289. Brigham Young Speaking about Joseph Smith.)
Or perhaps the DC and Jacob who both state that the servants will do the work, the Lord commanding them. But that the last time, in the last vineyard, the Lord of the vineyard too will go down to labor also.
Anyway, there are literally over a hundred quotes of this nature, and many scriptures which corroborate them. When a being is made Celestial, all things are theirs, life and death included. Both are needed to perform works among men. Christ and Adam chose death. While others are coming and going in life, such as the Lord Jehovah to Abraham and lot. Whatever is needed at the time to accomplish the plan.
adam, christ and Others having been exhalted before coming here is not the issue. and you are right that condesention and suffering is necessary for our progression.
what I was saying, is that adam, christ and other nobles, were exalted “spirits” of an embodied exalted father.
once a person recieves an exalted body, it is contrary to “progression” to regress….for any of them to return to a world in a fallen state and function as presiding officers.
they would most certainly function as assistants to those of us already here without joseph or anyone else loosing what god promised them.
at the second coming, all those administrators of the terrestrial kingdom belonging to the celestial order, recieve what belongs to them, as at that time, the partially exalted world ( terrestrial kingdom )
would then be an acceptable place for administering Celestial beings such as christ and joseph, adam ect…Who can not remain in the presence of fallen beings and expect them to live…No unclean thing can enter the presence of god or any celestial being and survive.
only short visits are appropriate in order to deliver keys or instructions, but not to function as a presiding minister.
that’s what “WE” have come here to do. they already had their turn.
the transition from the telestial world we now live in, to the terrestrial enviromement we are to prepare ( Zion ), would need to be administered through a lesser glory…the terrestrial glory of people here now, who would be made into angels like john, elijah ect…
you need the proper tools for the job ( angels ). celestial beings are an overkill durring this period of transition and would not mesh with the much lower requirements necessary to eleveate a people to the terrestrial order.
but once that order was firmly established, then it’s “time’ for the resurected lord and those of the celestial order to return with him and pick up where they left off upon leaving this earth.
to place resurected celestial beings in a permanent working situation among telestial beings in a fallen world, would be like someone handing you a cheap pare of sun glasses and giving you the job of searching for sun spots and not expecting you to walk away blind.
as far as death belonging to resurected beings is concerned, i believe that is in reference to never having to suffer it again. and who in their right mind would even want to do that when there are those already here who will be selected to carry out the work at hand.
have you never heard the expression…i did it once but never care to do that again…?
that’s not just a statement of jest for those having really been run through the mill in life.
for anyone who would proclaim they would be more than happy to repeat their lives, never suffered as joseph did or anyone who has really had the hard row to hoe in life.
heck yea, if it was a piece of cake the first time around….
i think these are the types of people who believe this doctrine…those who had it comparitively easy in life.
the average mormon from out west has lived a life of comparitive ease by other typical standards of life “most” of the world outside of utah suffers. i’m not speaking of individuals but rather collectively speaking.
those born under several generations of the covenant, are pretty much isolated from the realative harshness of the “real” world.
personally, unless i were some kind of ego maniac, i would prefer to keep my seat in heaven and wait for the others to catch up with me.
if there were true selfless motives involved with wanting to help out with things down stairs, then the decision to “not go”should have been made before they left. vs…john, three nephites.
but god requires “SOME” to go…
that senerio conforms to logic. you sacrifice putting off something greater for the sake of others and you are not found to enter a stage of regression but rather progression….you take on a higher body like ( john ).
when you assume a celestial resurection, then there is nothing higher, so you would have to “regress” in order to do what you are describing.
it matters not that you may feel it is a spiritual sacrafice you would be making, and stating “THAT” to be the progessive element. your body would have to agree with your spirit. and once that body becomes celestial…it can not regress without breaking the laws of heaven.
all of those exalted people of our preexistent past…”progressed”by coming to recieve a mortal body which they did not previously have. once you reach the top…there is no room for moving up. you can move on but not up, unless becoming a celestial grand parent counts as moving up.
as an earthly grand parent, i count that experience as moving on…within the same realm as parent hood. which is god hood in celestial terms.
i’m puzzled by the popular notions that resurected beings would digress contrary to the laws of heaven in order to serve …what puropse ?… to have already had their time on earth only to return and push others aside who are here for their first time and hoping to do “their part” in history…?
to cause joseph and others who have already had their turn, to have to wait for the lord’s permanent return before picking up where they left off, doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.
i know the current leadership has to go, but not those who have remained vallant…why would “they” have to step to the back of the bus after having suffered the riggors of a world 1,000 times degraded since the time of joseph ?
he met “HIS” challenge in “HIS TIME”. now is “OUR TIME”. in the end we all come together again. but I don’t think that heavenly father wants to tollerate cutting in line before those here now, who have already paid a certain unique price for living durring our generation.
joseph smith as great a man as he is and was, and even in the face of having made the ultimate sacrifice for the cause…did not have to endure the evil trials of our day. and many of us will become martyers as well…
i don’t think, after having gone through all i’ve been through to get this far in a world proclaimed to be more wicked than the world of noah’s day, that i feel like saying…oops…let me just step out of the way while you take over.
i’m not projecting this as a selfish desire or subborn pride….i’m stating it as a matter of righteous fact. and no one is going to jump on the bus at the last minute, after i and many others have had to cruise this rough ride without them, and expect me to give up my seat….ain’t gonna happen…
and to be honest with you, i don’t think joseph or any of the others who have gone before us, would feel they deserve that right and would feel totally awkward at the thought of taking the reign that others have valaintly clung to in the face of opposition much greater than joseph’s generation had to endure.
hey, moses didn’t make it to the promised land either. but he seems content with dilivering vital keys so that others might have “ThEIR TURN”.
joseph woul be engauged in this work in that same “APPROPRIATE” manner.
when this work that joseph started is finished by someone else already here, then we all get together and assume our rightful positions. joseph is credited with laying the “Gospel foundation’ to a kingdom to be built upon that foundation by someone else.
Haggi started something that zecharia finished. elijah started something that elisha finished. john the baptist started something that jesus finished. this is the way it always goes.
some like joseph are called to die. others like the servant are called to finish what one man started.
does that mean joseph gets shafted ? you tell me…tell that to joshua who replaced moses. do you think moses got shafted ? is joshua a bad guy for filling in ? apparrently moses didn’t think so and niether would joseph…
all things of the past have been foreshadowing types that failed and are only to be finally realized in the end.
and a righteous man was at the helm of those failures…moses…joshua, and even jesus. he died to right ? so he failed to establish his kingdom just like moses, joshua and the rest failed at doing that.
it wasn’t “time” for that….now’s the “time”.
joseph was just the last of a long line of good men to fail at doing that. no more, no less…
the next man won’t fail according to scripture and is the only one to be able to do that. and what the servant establishes…christ will inherit.
that’s “ALWAYS” the way it goes…
joseph is an arch angel…one of 7 chief angels to preside over a dipensation of people born to time.
he ain’t gett’n shafted !
but the coming servant is a member of deity and will eventuall preside over an entire world of his own ( the telestial kindom ). while christ will inherit the terrestrial kingdom that his brother prepares for him. and together they will funtion as a diarchy government in that kingdom as was moses and aaron…in simlitude to husband and wife/father and mother.
the patterns never change…they are always constient.
we are occasionally hit with surprises along the road of gospel history. but they are suprises that never deviate from established patterns.
Joseph’s return to take over the reign of leadership would fly in the face of common courtesy to those of us already here who are capable and ready to do what god has sent us here to do.
and if joseph were to be this final servant, then he must be willing to relinquish his position as an arch angel and assume the identity of the holy spirit.
i can honesty tell you that joseph is not the holy spirit.
There is a very familiar spirit here and its not the spirit of truth…
(Note from Dan; issue resolved, it was made in reference to above comments, not to the blog in general.
Thanks again Dan)
You’re welcome anytime stargazer
valsky, thats quite a diatribe! a lot to respond to. WE agree that history is our guide for the future. Thats largely the biggest force behind my thoughts here.
we are likely going to have to disagree here for the most part, too much to respond ot in this forum. I would comment on one quote out of the bunch.
“i’m puzzled by the popular notions that resurected beings would digress contrary to the laws of heaven in order to serve …what puropse ?”
Its hardly a ‘popular’ notion.
And Joseph and Brigham did not agree with you, nor do I believe do the scriptures.
Like I said, the purpose is obvious. They are here to create a race of men and aid them in salvation. They condescend to do it for our exaltation, to save us, because they are at a position where that is what exalts them. Adam came here, having lived and died on another earth, condescended and performed a work to start a race of men. He then lived a full life, again, and died.
Death is not an end, and mortality does not need to be a digression, its merely part of a path, and eternal round of all history. Jesus proved that.
a couple more corresponding quotes that I agree with below, adieu. and again, thanks for coming. Considering Jeremiahs potter wheel;
“Elder Heber C. Kimball preached at the house of President Joseph Smith, on the parable in the 18th chapter of Jeremiah, of the clay in the hands of the potter, that when it marred in the hands of the potter it was cut off the wheel and then thrown back again into the mill, to go into the next batch, and was a vessel of dishonor; but all clay that formed well in the hands of the potter, and was pliable, was a vessel of honor; and thus it was with the human family, and ever will be: all that are pliable in the hands of God and are obedient to His commands, are vessels of honor, and God will receive them. President Joseph arose and said—‘Brother Kimball has given you a true explanation of the parable…’” (Minutes of a Meeting of the Twelve in the House of the Prophet. HC 4:478)
“Upon the same principle, supposing I have a lump of clay which I put upon my wheel, out of which clay I want to make a jug; I have to turn it into as many as 50 or 100 shapes before I get it into a jug. How many shapes do you suppose you are put into before you became Saints, or before you become perfect and sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God? You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter’s house to see a miracle on the wheel?
Suppose the potter takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel, goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it out this way, and that way, and the other way, but the clay is refractory and snappish; he still trys it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus the potter will work it and work it until he is satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants, and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then, and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the mill to be ground over again, until it becomes passive, (don’t you think you will go to hell if you are not passive?) and after it is ground there so many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor.
Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time, until all the human family, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive.” (JD 1:161)