Again, from my flawed paradigm to yours…
The Word “Jehovah” is really a misnomer in and of itself. The Scriptures (hebrew) never use that term. The term “YHWH” was the name of God, no vowels in the Hebrew. They didn’t use that word though, it being Holy, instead they said “Adonai”, since it is somehow better. 
Since they didn’t use the real word for God out loud (“YHWH”), it’s true pronunciation was eventually not passed down. Than, like many other things, the Catholics mixed human ideas with Gods name;
The misreading of the text to form the word “Jehovah” is usually traced to Petrus Galatinus, confessor to Pope Leo X, who in 1518 AD transliterated the four Hebrew letters with the Latin letters JHWH together with the vowels of Adonai, producing the artificial form “Jehovah.” (This confused usage may, however, have begun as early as 1100 AD). (“Yahweh,” Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 6, 1011)
We use it so much because the Translators of the Kings James version translated the Word “YHWH”, the Name of God the father, into Jehovah, or into LORD all caps. This was an error in and of itself, but it’ll do.
But the point is, “YHWH” to Israel was the God of the Earth, God the Father. YHWH was and is the God of Israel. The Holy one of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But, YHWH to them is God the Father, the God of heaven and earth, not the Son. They worshipped and prayed to God the Father. If we say that their God was Jesus (in a sense yes, but meaning the president of the earth), than they worshiped a different God than us! Even Christ commanded us to pray to the Father, in Jesus Name.
But, using a correct reading of the Hebrew we get this verse:
The LORD (YHWH or Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Jesus Christ the Mediator of the covenant), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Psalms 110:1)
The argument doesn’t stop there, as the Leaders of the early church understood this mistake. They knew and worshipped Jehovah and bowed at the feet of His son. They taught openly who the God of the Old testament was:
“They will come up tribe by tribe, and the Ancient of Days, He who led Abraham and talked to Noah, Enoch, Isaac, and Jacob, that very Being will come and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Brigham Young, J of D. 11:327)
“President Brigham Young yet another time said, “Who commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? who is that God? He is my Father . . . your Father. We are His offspring.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8:236)
In 1841 with Joseph at the Helm of the church the First presidency released a statement of belief to the public in the times and Seasons. The first line of the statement read, “We believe in God the Father, who is the Great Jehovah and head of all things, and that Christ is the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father.”(Times & Seasons 3:358). Several years later in another official release Brigham stated, ““Jehovah God,Thou Eloheim-Thy Son Jesus Christ (BYA, 4 Aug 1867)“. After that John Taylor, then president of the church in hiding for his beliefs, penned a hymn for the church to sing, in it was the line, “Jehovah, God the Father is one / Another His Eternal Son (Sacred Hymns #262)“. Even well into this century the doctrine remained as David O. McKay declared, “Jehovah and his Son, Jesus.(1 July 1961, Church News)“, though by that time confused.
I find it intriguing that the one person who was closest to the Savior, to the veil and God himself (Joseph) never once identified Jesus as Jehovah, though he did several times speak of him as the God the father of heaven and earth.
In some 256 references to Elohim and Jehovah and the God of the Old Testament, in the Journal of Discourses (representing sermons of many of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve), the title Jehovah is only specifically applied to Jesus once. This occurred in 1885, when the new doctrine identifying Jesus as Jehovah was just beginning to be developed, and then by Franklin D. Richards, not the president or prophet at the time. All other times it referred to Jehovah as the great eternal god, The father of humanity.
Another interesting evidence which shows that the early Saints didn’t relate Jehovah as being Christ, is the first doctrinal compendium on Mormon belief, entitled “A Compendium of the Faith and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.” This was compiled by Apostle Frederick D. Richards in 1857 (intriguingly the same guy who many years later gave Jesus the term Jehovah). It has a section within it, on page 150, that is entitled “The Names, Titles and Characters Given to Jesus.” and it lists some 50 titles that apply to Jesus. The name “Jehovah” is not found within those titles. The Millennial Star, Orson and Parley Pratt, Daniel Wells, and many others all made the same distinction… evidence enough to show that in the eyes of the leaders of the Church, many of whom testified to having met the Savior, Jehovah is not Jesus Christ, but is in fact one and the same person as our Heavenly Father.
Even the contemporaries of Jesus, in several instances, referred the God of the Old Testament talking about His Son, Jesus. For instance, in psalms 2:7 we read, “ I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.“ Lest we think this is talking of the author of Psalms, Paul Identifies this Begotten Son as Christ in Hebrew 1:5, showing that He was the Lord’s (YHWH) Son.
Joseph in reading Exodus redid a verse to make it read like this, “For thou shalt worship no other god; for the Lord, whose name is Jehovah, is a jealous God. (JST Exodus 34:14)“ Again, the original version uses the word YHWH in the place of Lord here, meaning God the Father of all Israel. And that God is the only God whom we worship.
The Old testament refers to God in this fashion through out. The scriptures speak for themselves on this issue. They talk of “the LORD [Jehovah], the God of the spirits of all flesh,†(Numbers 27:16) that we “are the children of the LORD [Jehovah]†(Deuteronomy 14:1) and that He “giveth breath unto the people†upon the earth “and spirit to them that walketh therein†(Isaiah 42:5) as He “formeth the spirit of man within Him.†(Zechariah 12:1)
“Most Latter-Day Saints do not realize how often the names Elohim and Jehovah
appear in the Old Testament because they have been translated from Hebrew into
English. Elohim occurs 2,570 times and is closely related to El, which occurs
some 238 times. Jehovah (YHWH) is by far the most frequently used Hebrew name for God
in the Old Testament, occurring some 6,823 times. King James translators
translated Elohim and El as “God” and Jehovah as “LORD,” (all caps) and used
“Lord” for the Hebrew Adonai, which Hebrew biblical editors often substituted
for Jehovah in the prophetic books out of respect for the divine name…
…Depending upon the intentions of the author, God may be referred to as
Elohim, Jehovah, or Jehovah-Elohim… Jehovah is the personal name of Israel’s
God as revealed to Moses and hence is never used in a plural sense or ever
designates anyone but Israel’s God. (Boyd Kirkland. Elohim and Jehovah in
Mormonism and the Bible. Dialogue. Vol.19, No.1. p.79)
Sticking with that theme of Moses’ God, Joseph uttered this prayer;
“…O Thou, who seest and knowest the hearts of all men – Thou eternal,
omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah – God – Thou Eloheim, that
sittest, as saith the Psalmist, “enthroned in heaven,” look down upon Thy
servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ,
to a greater degree than Thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon
him…”(Joseph Smith. History of the Church. Vol.5. p.127)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God at whose instance the
prophets of the ages have spoken, the God of all nations, and He who shall yet
reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.” (James E. Talmage, Jesus the
Christ. p.4)
is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the
antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Epraim and Judah
after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the
prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God
of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was, and is Jehovah, the Eternal
One.”
“Christ is Jehovah; they are one and the same person.” (Bruce R. McConkie.
Mormon Doctrine. p.392)
Though President McConkie stated the above remark he also said, “True religion consists in worshiping the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost. Such was the case with Israel of old in the days of their enlightenment.” (Bruce R. McConkie. The Millenial Messiah.p.196) Again, if we are going to say that we worship the same God as Israel, we cannot say that they worshipped Christ and we worship His father.
For anybody interested in seeing the intricacies of the biblical texts in more depth, “Elohim and Jehovah in Mormonism and the Bible” by Boyd Kirtland (Dialogue 19:1) is a must! As a conclusion to that HUGE study he wrote;
“Whatever argument is possible for the current LDS definitions of Elohim and
Jehovah from Mormon sources, it must be admitted that these definitions do not
accord with the biblical usage of those terms. Apologists aware of this problem
have been forced to conclude that the entire biblical record as we now have it
has been so systematically corrupted and edited through the centuries, that all
indications of a theology more in conformity with current Mormon definitions has
been obliterated.” (Dialogue 19:1)
People may think that by compiling and writing this I am doing our Savior a disservice, discrediting Him if you will. On the contrary. The hope for eternal life is to know God the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. If that be the case, it is essential that we not confuse their roles. That we ascribe the things to the Father and the Son that are theirs. Otherwise there is no understanding, there is no knowledge, only distraction from the true course. Jesus Christ is My Lord and my Savior. He lived and died to pay the debt required, so that I might be cleansed through His holy calling and return to see the Father. HE is the Mediator of the Covenant. He came to Joseph and Moses to announce that covenant. However, he did so as the foremost Servant of YHWH. He speaks in the Name of Jehovah, with the voice of Jehovah.
Jehovah (the Father of our spirits-Michael) to us had a Father, who was His Jehovah, and the LORD of the creation.
Shalom! Dan
All good points, some of which I have shared with others. The one thing for me which throws a wrench in this is the book of mormon, which to my simplistic view sure seems to make jesus the god of the old testament. one can say with george q. cannon that jesus speaks for the father and is not equating himself in such speeches. However, and again this is only me, that explanation has never set quite right.
Steve
Technically he is the God of the Book Of Mormon, and the old testament and to you now, as we all are reliant on him and must go through him. We all must become his begotten sons and daughters. and whenever he delivers the covenant, in order for you to keep it you must go through him. He too is the cleanser.
but yhwh he is not, though one with god he is. we pray to him, in his name, as he is the gate (john 10:1-9), however the keeper and ruler of that gate is YHWH.
dan,
clarify that last paragraph in your comment. We pray to “him.” Him who? him God the father or him jesus christ? I was under the impression that we pray to god the father through jesus christ.
certainly we pray to the father in the name of Christ. But, Christ is one with yahweh…and the author of saltvation and finisher of faith.
along those lines,
Is your Body in your spirit or your spirit in your Body? How many Bodies does YHWH have? He has Jesus, we know that, will he have yours?
I wanted to concede something here. In doing a word study in the hebrew and greek I realized I had been looking at a particular title incorrectly. “the Holy One of Israel” This is Christ-you all know that. But-The reason is that the term is nearly synonymous with the “Holy One of God” used by the evil spirits to testify of him. Also the term Holy here is Qados, meaning special, sanctified, set apart, sacred, consecrated to God. So, in my mind it seems clear that all of Israel, as the covenant children of God-the only ones with a promise, are the children of God. Of all of them, Jesus is the Sanctified and set apart one, dedicated for a holy purpose. That purpose is to make all of us “holy ones”, In His Name. So, as a CHILD of God, and thus one of Israel, Christ is the Holy ONE.
SO connecting the idea of the God of Israel. AS just shown above, as the Holy one of Israel and the Holy one of God, he is not God Himself. Rather he is OF (emphasis on of) God and OF Israel. And, by placing himself in Front of the God of Israel (YHWH), he becomes the God of our Fathers, the Gate we must enter (John 10), to get to the Father.
The problem comes when we replace YHWH with Jehovah and with His Holy one. By so doing we confuse who is the Gate and who is the keeper. Though Both are one and are our Gods. Jesus Came down and was Possessed of the Spirit of YHWH from the beginning, sanctified for the purpose. He was OF God and thus it is true that God himself came down and took himself a body and you know he kept it!
9 And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.
10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
11 For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day, some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up.
12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.
13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.
14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.
15 Nevertheless, when that day cometh, saith the prophet, that they no more turn aside their hearts against the Holy One of Israel, then will he remember the covenants which he made to their fathers.
16 Yea, then will he remember the isles of the sea; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.
17 Yea, and all the earth shall see the salvation of the Lord, saith the prophet; every nation, kindred, tongue and people shall be blessed.
18 And I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people, that perhaps I might persuade them that they would remember the Lord their Redeemer.
I think the situation becomes more interesting when one ponders the deeper meaning of
the words of John:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can
do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth:
and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
If the father shows that son all things that he is to do, could this mean that the father once
performed in the ‘office’ of the son before being promoted? What if this were a component
of eternal progression? What if Christ was successful in his ‘office’ and assumed the role of
the father? Jesus Christ could then be considered both the father and the son. Of course, to
accept this idea one would have to believe in multiple probations…
it is unfortunate that the english standard works substitutes other words for the name of god instead of just putting the names where they appear in the text. i think much of the confusion everyone has (including us lds) comes from this practice.
abinadi taught that the son of god was both the father and the son. retranslated with the names of god put back in:
And now Abinadi said to them: I would that you all should understand that elohim himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwells in flesh he shall be called the Son of elohim, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—The Father, because he was conceived by the power of elohim; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—And they are one elohim, yea, the very yahweh Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15: 1-4)
So, elohim came down and dwelt in flesh.
Verily, thus says yahweh: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsakes his sins and comes to me, and calls on my name, and obeys my voice, and keeps my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am; And that I am the true light that lights every man that comes into the world; And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men. (d&c 93: 1-4, retranslated with the name of god put back in.)
so, yahweh came down and dwelt in flesh.
so, yes, jehovah (yahweh) is god the father, which is where this post goes right, but jehovah (yahweh) is also god the son.
dan, speaking of jesus, said, “he is the gate (john 10:1-9), however the keeper and ruler of that gate is YHWH.” jesus is both the gate (door) and the keeper of the gate:
“the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel” (2 nephi 9: 41)
“Christ is the Holy One of Israel” (2 nephi 25: 29)
admin asked, “Is your Body in your spirit or your spirit in your Body?”
my answer: “my body is in my spirit.”
Admin asked, “How many Bodies does YHWH have? He has Jesus, we know that, will he have yours?”
my answer: “yahweh has all bodies that are in the created universe, including mine. he is in all things, above all things, below all things, through all things, etc.”
spek said, “Jesus Christ could then be considered both the father and the son.”
jesus is both the father and the son without having to resort to “office promotions.” lol. here are the verses again, with some emphasis:
Then answered Jesus and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do (present tense) nothing of himself, but what he sees (present tense) the Father do (present tense): for what things soever he does (present tense), these also does (present tense) the Son likewise. For the Father loves (present tense) the Son, and shows (present tense) him all things that himself does (present tense): and he will shew (future tense) him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. (John 5: 19-20)
the son sees the father do works.
the sons does the works of the father.
the son is the father.
the father is the son.
question: who is the son looking at when he sees the father perform the works?
answer: the son is looking at himself.
Anarchist, I lean with you in these thought lines. I am wondering if you believe adam god? from what you have said I think that you do not. if that be the case, do you believe adam to be the Ancient of days? or perhaps you believe they are of the same being, jesus and adam, refuting brigham’s beliefs on the subject.
I however do believe and find the definition you gave us to be lacking, though wholly better that than the mainstream view.
I am not arguing that Elohim did not come and dwell in the flesh of (or even as) Jesus Christ. The invitation is for all of us to do the same. Jesus was the perfect example amongst all the sons of god of being one with god, in that he was possessed with that spirit from the beginning of his millennial mortality. one with God from the beginning. elohim thus dwelt in entirety in the flesh of jesus Christ. but elohim is the great unchangeable god of heaven and earth, perfectly exalted which we all must become one with. all creation, the earth, animals and humans are parts of him, he being in and through all things, we being in the mind of god. all Gods, or exalted men, who have been exalted become Elohim, Gods with authority forming a council.
basically it seems to me that you are arguing the same thing. that Jesus was one with elohim from the beginning. that he was one with Jehovah, the elohim set over our existence and holding the keys to administration. In fact, that jehovah placed his spirit wholly into Jesus during jesus mortal existence, making them one. Jesus had exalted his portion in past existence suffiecient to qualify for such a rebirth as being exalted to the oneness of jehovah.
you are part of god, in that all intelligence is his, but we are not one with him until we use agency to exalt our portion-and give it all back to him.
however, on the idea that Jesus was the god the father of the creation, abraham is sufficiently plain (in my mind) on the idea. He states plainly that in the creation there was a god over the son who came here to do the work of redemption. also stated plainly there is that that exalted being was the head creator of this existence. I am posting a new post on just those verses.
I like your view on this, i don’t however think that is sufficiently explains the godhead. rather, it leaves out the god the father, the creator of jesus christ himself, in the explanation. if however you feel that it can explain the god the first-creator, god the second-redeemer and god the third-witness, than please elaborate.
There is no scripture that explicitly states that we are brothers (meaning having the same father) with Christ. that being admitted, how do you view the godhead who made a covenant, received the keys and now rule over the earth? who is the first president over the earth?
For Christ to be the very eternal Father needs no changing of words or ideas, because he is, for Israel. They are his begotten sons and daughters. however, there are others of gods children too (most) who have not received that covenant to the rebirth and renewal of their creation. They have not been begotten of Christ. he is not in that sense the father of the spirits and bodies of men who still exist in a fallen state of seperation, without a fullness of joy.
hoping you’ll continue to rehash your thoughts here, without puttin on airs.
dan, I can see where in the scriptures brigham got the idea for adam-god, but it is mere speculation on his part and not really supported by the scriptural studies I’ve done. joseph, i believe, stated that adam is the ancient of days and we know from the temple that adam was called michael.
again, i think the problem people have with understanding the nature of elohim is that our scriptures do not use the proper names. the catholics and protestants understand the father, son and holy ghost to be one and the same. the mormons understand the father, son and holy ghost to be three, separate individuals. the truth of the matter is that they are both correct. Elohim encompasses the one and the all at the same time. they are three and they are one. we mormons say there is god the father, god the son and god the holy ghost, using out english word for “god.” but we could also use the hebrew and say there is elohim the father, elohim the son and elohim the holy ghost. we don’t because we are taught to divide the names/titles of elohim amongst the three individuals. thus, the father is called elohim, the son is called yahweh (jehovah) and the holy ghost is called…well, we are taught that we don’t yet know the name of the holy ghost.
this is, of course, true. the father is elohim and the son is yahweh. but, it is also equally true that the father is yahweh and the son is elohim. in fact, we could even say that the holy ghost is elohim and yahweh, too. the holy ghost is the “spirit of yahweh” (spirit of the lord) and the “spirit of elohim” (spirit of God), so these name/titles fit for her, as well.
let me put it another way. there are three members of the godhead. i will introduce you to them. dan, meet elohim, elohim, and elohim. or, i could introduce them by another name. dan, meet yahweh, yahweh, and yahweh.
two or more people having the same name is not uncommon among mankind. plenty of people have the same name. and many parents name sons after their father, or daughters after their mother. it happens all the time. don’t you think that if the son and holy ghost have attained a fulness of the father, that they would not also obtain his names, too? everything that is his is theirs, including his names.
of course, we are also given other names that point to one particular member of the godhead. for example, yahushua (jesus) points to the son and sophia (wisdom) points to the holy ghost. but even these names can be applied to the other members, for is not the father and son also wisdom personified? yahushua means yahweh saves or yahweh is salvation. would such a name/title not apply equally to the father and holy ghost, who are also called yahweh (the eternal one)? do they not also save? and what of the name michael (one who is like elohim)? can we not say that the name/title michael applies each of the three members of the godhead? Are not each one of them like the other godhead members?
okay, wrapping this up. you said, “There is no scripture that explicitly states that we are brothers (meaning having the same father) with Christ. that being admitted, how do you view the godhead who made a covenant, received the keys and now rule over the earth? who is the first president over the earth?”
how about john 20: 17? “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” or, some plainer translations: “I am going up to the one who is my Father and my elohim, as well as your Father and your elohim.” “I am going up to my Father. He is your Father, also. I am going up to my elohim. He is your elohim, also.” “i return to my father, which is the father of you all; to my elohim, which is the elohim of you all.”
does that scripture not indicate that we are brothers of christ, having the same father as him?
concerning your other questions, it sounds like you are talking of adam god. i’ll pop over to your other post and address that there.
Joseph first stated the Adam-God Doctrine, by declaring the ancient of Days to be Michael. All Christianity then, and still, believe the Ancient of days to be God. Also, he discussed it openly often. And like I said, the scriptures do more than allow for it, they testify of it. It was a doctrine of the church in the temple and in open discourse. there is nothing strange about it, as it explains the eternal round in far more complete fashion that any other means.
Elohim is a plural reference, as Joseph said, referring to the council of Gods, the im being plural. All beings who are one with God the Eternal unchangeable father (YHWH) are on this council and called elohim, or in the singular, Elohim-Jehovah. And Jehovah-Michael set over us, the God that the Gods set over us, according to Joseph.
I too believe that the mormons and the catholic are both generally correct, however they describe different Gods. One a supreme God, which includes all things, the planets and a Jehovah Judging planet X, the Elohim which is in and through all things and the Holy Ghost or Mind of God which is shared by all subordinate Gods-exalted men. the other being subordinate Godheads, which are set in authority over individual creations to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of men through earthly existence and exaltation. They are one with the YHWH which is in and through all things through the spirit and mind of God, which they share.
We are going to disagree, and thats fine. enjoy.
Elohim is the Father of Jehovah and Jehovah is the father of our spirits and also our saviour—when you have spirit children you are responsible for them until you have saved them all—you will be their Father and the saviour—rj
Rabirj,
“jehovah is the father of our spirits and also our savior”
Its quite a statement to just drop in and say something like that, without any sources. I’m assuming you’re not really a rabbi, as the Jews and “Jehovah” don’t mix, it being a mispronunciation by Christians of the one eternal God of Heaven and earth, YHWH?
On the other hand, if you can explain this with “pure knowledge” I’d be fascinated to hear your world view.
This is an old post, but it is one of my favorites! thankfully, i recently needed to find a reference about this topic and i knew i would find it here. im glad i took the opportunity to revisit/re-read it! When I first read this post – especially the comments – i was really confused, but intrigued. It lead me to a pretty amazing search for understanding! Now after an intense study in a great effort to know the true god as brother joseph taught this is the way to life eternal, i think i now understand each of yours and mr. anarchist’s argument. this will sound trite and silly, but im going to vote for “team weeping” on this one. long after i forgot who was saying what, i came to mostly the same conclusion as you did. of coarse anarchist made some great and true comments too and i love his blog as well, but my understanding is closer to yours. (i know it wasn’t meant to even be a contest so sorry to imply it as such!) this may not be what you believe, but in additional to the above i feel like the information leads to an Understanding of amazing eternal view of a heirarchy of gods that leads to the one true god who is in and thru all things. we have our savior and our father and they have theirs and who knows how many are before them until we reach the god of the universe in whose mind/body we reside. This is how i always understood it in my heart, but the idea that jesus is jehovah makes it all seem a bit confusing. ye are gods! gods in embryo, not just future “gods” who are wholey seperate from a god that exists on the outside of us. as we progress and learn and progress some more (i believe multiple mortalities makes complete sense when you realize what is ultimately required of us) until we become one with him as our savior is- he is the one who set the ultimate example of how this is done. we can become one with all those who are also one with the one true god. this is how i understand all the seemingly different descriptions of god from scripture. there is elohim – plural (including and leading up to theeeee god) and there is the god set over us, Jehovah (our god the father) and there is our redeemer, jesus christ! and yet, as also mentioned above, they are all one too!